greetings of peace welcome to the d show
media host
and my next guest was
traveling
and she wasn't traveling to france she
wasn't traveling to italy bosnia america
she was traveling to afghanistan and she
actually didn't have a visa she snuck in
the country and then she got captured
what happened to her next well
she's here on the dean show to share her
story
[Music]
gosh when i listened to that i thought
she must be barking mad
yeah i hit it so you didn't have a visa
actually to get in the country i did try
you know i'm a lawful
uh citizen and i did try and get a visa
i tried three times
but uh the then spiritual leader of the
taliban had ordered all of the media out
of the country and
they
refused me three times
well most people are traveling to
different locations uh for vacation but
what brought you to at that time you
know bombs are going off bullets are
flying and you're sneaking in the
country
i was after a story and i was the chief
reporter of the sunday express
there were three thousand other
journalists assembled in
pakistan waiting for the war to start
i've always been impatient but i always
also am incredibly competitive and i
thought what can i do that these 3 000
others won't and so
i put on a burqa and sneaked into
afghanistan ahead of the wall
and
was there for two days and and got some
good material to write a story
but
unfortunately i was
caught on the way back
and done for by a rogue donkey
so you were actually captured by
the
taliban
yes i was um
initially they arrested me for
illegally entering the country
and then they started to think that i
was some sort of
spy some sort of gi jane character
and they didn't recognize my accent
which is the north of england near
scotland
and they must have assumed that we all
spoke like the queen and um of course we
don't
so uh they thought i was an american
trying to speak english
did they have a translator how were you
how are you guys communicating
yes um
the doctor's son in jalalabad had the
misfortune to speak pashtu urdu and
english
so he was brought in
to act as a translator during the
interrogations
and he was called hamid i've often
wondered what happened to him
and he said to me
these people terrify me and they should
terrify you will you please just answer
their questions
and what what kind of questions were
they were they asking you and where
where were the uh so you're a british
journalist coming to get the story so
where and the so the british are there
at that time the united states is there
they're all there fighting is that right
no the fighting hadn't started at that
point there was the
the build-up to the wall um
you know as
well as we've seen from the scenes
coming out of kabul airport it takes
quite a while to get uh people out in a
major evacuation it takes quite a lot of
time as well to organize
an invasion and so um
the drums were beating to the wall
but i was
told by somebody in the military it's
probably not going to start for at least
another two weeks
and i only intended to be in afghanistan
for a couple of days
so i thought i'll nip in and nip out
before any bombs start dropping
and so what was the story headline that
you were chasing
um
it was
really about people's hopes and
expectations
in afghanistan what became very clear
uh quite soon was that um nobody had tv
sets television was banned under the
taliban and nobody had television sets
in these rural areas where i was
visiting
they
uh
never saw the horrific events of 9 11 on
you know they heard about it they heard
something bad it happened and a lot of
people were killed
but they didn't see the graphic images
that we saw
every 15 minutes on our screen for the
next three four weeks it was just
non-stop i don't know if you remember or
not but it was um
pretty full-on
and so they knew that something bad had
happened in america but they couldn't
understand what it had to do with them
because there were no taliban no afghans
on the hijacked plains
um
and and
they said if it is osama bin laden well
you know get him but don't bother us
and
it was it was quite interesting but also
um
i learned the character of the people
they were quite fearless the women were
incredibly strong
um
i found some that had been educated in
schools under the taliban and i found
one young girl who was training to be a
doctor
at
a college
um for
medical students
under the taliban so that started to
put in some fracture lines
that
bush and blair
had claimed you know this evil brutal
regime they don't allow women to be
educated
and and i began to realize that there
was a little bit of top spin on that and
that women
were educated maybe not
in some areas because of basic economics
and no teaching
teachers available but um
you know i did meet educated women out
in the countryside so
it um
it was quite eye-opening and the taliban
weren't feared
or hated
by these people
either so that was interesting all right
here we're just trying to get to the
truth we've been getting a lot of
requests to talk about this topic and
now somebody your your story is very
interesting we don't support any
political party we're not a part of uh
any talent you know we don't know much
about the taliban are you a taliban
taliban spokesperson
no and i'm not their poster girl and i'm
not a fan of theirs but i do speak the
truth and i can only speak as to what i
have seen i can only speak from the
facts that i have gleaned
and you know i remember about
10 years ago being in iran and some very
senior
government officials said will you brief
us about the taliban
and
this
meeting room of about 30
very senior
administrators from tehran was sitting
around
and i said to them do you want the truth
and they said of course we want the
truth i said well i'm warning you now
don't shoot the messenger because you're
not going to like this and i told them
about my experience
and some of them were furious
i said you know
i asked you if you wanted the truth
and in some ways i think you know if the
taliban had slapped me round chopped off
a hand i'd be
fated now from
everywhere in the world
but uh because they treated me well and
i had the temerity to come out and say
they treated me with courtesy and
respect
i have been verbally punched and kicked
ever since what happened now so you
you're you get you're getting
interrogated how long were you were you
um were you imprisoned how long were you
now
with them until you were set free
i was six days in jalalabad at the
intelligence headquarters
where i was
grilled every day they never touched me
they never threatened me
[Music]
i
was absolutely terrified
because i had bought into the propaganda
and this is what i'd say to everyone
who's listening here today
where did you get your facts from
how did you form these opinions
because i was terrified i just thought
they're going to kill me these men hate
women
they brutalize they torture they're
barbaric they're primitive
and
you know what i don't want any of this
to happen to me um let's cut out the
middleman and
just put me against a wall and shoot me
so i adopted
a risky strategy which is i became the
prisoner from hell i spotted them i
swore at them i threw things at them
they walked out on the interrogations a
couple of times because they couldn't
handle me
and
there was absolutely no bonding so for
anybody who's sitting there going oh
stockholm syndrome
sorry
sorry but
there was mutual loathing and hatred
between me and
the uh taliban and when they did release
me on humanitarian grounds i don't know
who was happier them on me when i
crossed into no man's land and even as i
crossed into no man's land as i got out
of the people carrier
i got out backwards because i thought
i'm going to keep my eye on this lock
because as soon as i turn my back
they're going to shoot me
that's you know so i didn't trust them
give them one quarter
right up until the point that they
released me
and it was only as i started to walk
across no man's land
that i thought oh you know
they weren't that bad after all
but um
i look at the fear on people's faces in
the airport in kabul
i recognize that for you
that is how i felt
for 11 days
thinking is this my last day are they
going to kill me today are they going to
torture me today is today the day
they're going to brutalize me so i
recognize that for you
whether it it's rooted in propaganda
or a real
lived experience i don't know
but that fear is palpable and it's very
real um and and the same you know it was
for me the fear was very real
but the
the the fear was all up here it was all
manufactured up here through the
propaganda
that i had been fed over the years
yeah many of us fall victim to that you
know we're spoon-fed what the media the
mainstream media gives us
and then we form like you were saying
that's where we form our opinions from
so now you're seeing on first-hand basis
uh you're seeing things because you're
experiencing these things so you're
you're there um what else do you
remember that stood out i i heard
something about that you were seeing
that they would not even look at you
they were looking here there and
everywhere and you took you took that
first as a sign of disrespect but or
something like that uh because you
thought they were gonna kill you so they
couldn't look at you but later you found
out that that was actually a sign of
respect
i had a feeling of deja vu i was reading
a report from a tv journalist
who was interviewing sahel shaheen one
of the taliban spokesman
and
he
she wrote that it was um a really creepy
um experience she said you know she was
looking at him and he was looking here
there everywhere but at her and that is
exactly what they did with me well in my
western
arrogance and ignorance i thought they
can't look me straight in the eye
because they feel so guilty they know
that they're going to execute me and and
they can't look me in the face
when i told my first muslim audience
some pashtuns in the crowd came over and
said no no this is a sign of respect we
don't stare at women we avert our gays
we don't you know it's rude in our
culture to look at somebody
and
so
i look back you know this
meeting with the taliban was a total
clash of cultures
i knew about as much
of their culture as they knew of mine
and it was a complete clash
neither side understood each other
there was some looking back some amusing
moments
and and um
i remember the third or the fourth day
they came in very well they were always
very dour but they came in and and
through the translator
they said you have lied to us and i said
everything i have told you is the truth
no no
um you didn't tell us you had a daughter
and i said but you never asked me if i
had a daughter but you said you were
single i said i am single well how can
you have a daughter
and i said well
do you have the concept of divorce in
your crazy world
and uh
one you know nodded his head breastly
and i said well you know um my
daughter's father lives there i live
here uh we're finished but
um you know we we still
keep in touch because of our daughter's
sake
and
the
really angry looking one went forward
and and through the translator said well
why haven't you got married again
and
i said i have my own car i have my own
house i have my own money i have my own
job why would i need a man
and it was as though i'd hit them with a
cattle prod they just sort of reeled at
this
and they got up and walked out and
discussed they couldn't
you know they they just wanted to get
out of the room
they just
um
couldn't
you know understand me as much as i
couldn't understand them
and um whatever they thought of western
woman they probably thought my god
they're even worse than we could have
imagined
um so as as i say it was a
a total clash i suspect some of them
are still being cancelled from the
experience
wow
at what point
were you given a copy of the quran and
how did that work was that like part of
a negotiation look we'll let you go if
you look into islam if you read the
quran or did they just let you go and
say hey look into this book look into
islam
what how did that develop in this part
of the story
the sixth day in jalalabad they invited
me to embrace islam
and i said i couldn't
make such a life-changing decision
but did they be sorry to uh
interject but did they explain it to you
are they just invited to you did they
give you kind of like a crash course
oh well uh
this cleric who came in
um
asked me what my religion was
and i just thought oh
you know
this is the part where i'm going to be
put up against a wall and shot and i
said i'm a christian and he said yes but
what sort of christian are you a roman
catholic or you were protestant
and i said i'm a protestant from the
church of england and he said in what
you think of islam
well in truth i knew nothing about islam
um i knew a little bit or thought i did
and that little bit that i knew was
completely wrong anyway
and he said what do you think of islam
oh i said it's wonderful it's absolutely
fantastic and i went off in praise of
this faith that i knew nothing about
and uh he then said yes islam is a
beautiful
religion
and
sat back and i again interjected i
couldn't agree more and i went off in
praise again of islam and looking back i
must have really
shown my ignorance because i said do you
know i said the people around here
love their faith so much
they pray
five times a day i said imagine that
five times a day so you're observing
you're
you're observing people praying around
you and
oh yeah well you know as as anyone will
tell you who's who's been in prison
there's nothing to do
and so what you do is you count you
count 20 strides forward you count 10
strides to the side
then you look at how fast the fan
rotates
then you just count anything you know
you count two flies going up a wall
that's a an event
um and and uh
and so
i heard this call to pray
and and it was called five times a day
and i'm thinking my goodness you know
um they're they're really fanatics
around here five times a day and so this
is what i was trying to convey to the
cleric that the people around here are
so into their religion they pray five
times a day not realizing
that it's obligatory
so
you know
when i got back to london i thought
about it
and because i had observed things and
counted things and watched people
i realized that islam
was
more than something that you pick up and
put down after friday press
it was the way you ate the way you slept
the way you conduct yourself
uh the way you behave
how you wear your clothes your you know
just
everything in their life
seemed to be guided or influenced
by islam
entering a room bismillah
leaving the room
um listening to my questions with
various
um
things would would come out and uh so
when i got back to london i just thought
if i am going to report
with any authority at all
on the muslim world i've got to find out
about this religion i've made these guys
a promise
i've got this glaring
or
this vacuum
in my head about islam i really need to
fill it so i started
reading the holy quran which i found
very easy the english translation by aya
savali
and it was very easy for me because i
had been a sunday school teacher so i
was well
up on
the bible so
here in the holy quran
the same characters the same prophets
all the same
well not all the same but you know the
same people were coming up
and so it was very easy for me to um to
go through and read it
and then i started reading
supplementary literature especially
about um
the prophet muhammad
peace be upon him because
he was the only person in the
quran that i
whose name i didn't recognize
and um
so i started reading about um about him
and
i
left it right to the end you know sort
of doing everything in sequence and i
read the farewell message
i wished i'd read the farewell message
first in fact i tell everybody you want
to know about islam start from the end
and then work
work
backwards the
farewell message was just
an inspiration
and it is so relevant
today
um it could have been penned by somebody
from the black lives matter movement it
could have been
penned from
any oppressed group it could have been
penned by whoever wrote the u.n
declaration of human rights
but it wasn't it was uh written by our
beloved prophet peace be upon him
um
you know 1400 or so years ago
so
that was incredible so after two years
of studying islam
and reading the quran i embraced islam
and joined what i consider
to be the biggest and the best family in
the world
and like any large family
we're constantly at loggerheads
and and um
but you know that that's uh
it really is an incredible faith and
the taliban are now in a position
where they can show how beautiful
islam is
or they can totally
wreck
find you know once and for all people's
perceptions of islam and and reinforce
those prejudices
that people hold
against religion and against islam
because there is a very very important
position at the moment
you know the world is watching
and anything they do
when you found out
the deep love and reverence that
the quran
that allah god almighty references to
mary there's a whole chapter obviously
in the quran named after jesus's blessed
mother named chapter medium the love
that we have for jesus not as a god or
literal son of god but as one of the
messengers of god just like abraham
moses
noah and all the other messengers that
were sent when you saw that there wasn't
there was this commonality you know uh
which many christians coming from the
background you were at you know the
belief in one and only one god being
morally upright you know being a good
human being when you saw you know many
of those commonalities was it much
easier you know to accept submission and
surrender because that's what islam
obviously means to acquire peace by
submitting yourself to the owner of
peace the creator of heavens and earth
was it a much easier you know
transition
i struggled at the concept of the holy
trinity
god the father god the son and god the
holy ghost and i
reread the new testament
and went back to the quran then i spoke
to scholars because people knew that i
was studying islam i was blessed
uh with all manner of
scholars you know i had access to right
across the middle east some great names
and
but i then also went back
and spoke to
some
christian
theologians as well because i really
struggled
with the hope the concept of the holy
trinity and it was
an ordinary brother
who
opened my eyes
and sometimes you know we look for an
answer
and we look at the stars and the moon
and it's there in in front of us and we
just don't see it
and he said to me why are you struggling
and i said well it's been drummed into
my head from a kid
but god is the father god is the son god
is the holy ghost and a sudden and uh
this is the the holy trinity and he said
right
he said what relation is john the
baptist to jesus and i said well they're
cousins and he said right
so
when john the baptist is praying to
allah or praying to god
he's saying
uncle god and i said don't be so
ridiculous and he said yeah
he said but if you believed in the holy
trinity
he said then
then john the baptist would be praying
to uncle god because
and and that's when i realized you know
you can't
um dilute
allah he's one person
or one being one individual
and um
he's everything to the the whole world
and he can't just be right
this is the bit that's the ghost this is
the bit that's jesus and i suddenly
realized
i started looking into it more
and you know a lot of christians
from
palestine
were tortured during the spanish
inquisition
because
the
um
they
didn't believe in
the holy trinity these are christians
you're talking about yes it was never in
there it was never in their core belief
these are the the first christians
in the world really you know they're the
ones that came from the the land that
jesus walked through so it was um
[Music]
it would that that was quite interesting
as well
and um
and and the christians in that part of
the world when they pray they pray
um
the same as we do
you know uh
in subjude and
they they pray like that
um in total submission
to the one god
so it is quite um
it is quite interesting and i
think
um
that
you know
maybe
a student of comparative religions could
um
could come up and and explain this
better than i i just have you know what
i was a sunday school teacher but i
wasn't a theologian and i wasn't
really in depth in the same way as i'm a
muslim but i'm not a scholar or even a
student of islam
i'm just you know
15 years old islamically the ludicrous
idea of john the baptist praying sort of
to uncle god
just really
it was just so simple it just hit home
and uh as i say you know
um
most of us are not blessed with the
minds of great thinkers and great
theologians and scholars
um
but there's still a lot of wisdom out
there and and as i say can be staring us
right in the face what advice do you
have for other people who are out there
who become
victims of much of the hate propaganda
and now they're listening to you
and you asked a brilliant question where
are you getting your information from so
what advice would you give for people
who they've been fed all this stuff
about islam you know islam oppresses
women
islam you know wants to uh you know
wreak havoc on the earth islam this
islam that what advice do you have for
people like that who are you know just
sincerely they want to know the truth
but they're just crippled by fear well
to all my sisters out there whoever you
are wherever you are
um
know your quran because if you
know the quran
then you know
that the holy quran makes it crystal
clear we women are equal in spirituality
worth and education and there isn't a
man out there in the patriarchy in
misogyny anywhere who would
challenge the word of god so if you know
your quran you know your rights and you
can enforce them and insist upon them
and
and it is having the knowledge
to be able to do this
so um if you're being oppressed it's not
because of islam it's because the
oppressor doesn't know his is
so would you recommend every politician
you know every christian anybody who's
certain you know they're just like you
struggling with the trinity and it often
has me think of the story in the heart
of europe where you had where my
ancestors the roots are in bosnia and
you had what's called the booga meals
those dear to god they were unitarian
christians and they also didn't believe
in this trinity so there are so many
people who struggle with that this was
the largest concentration of people in
the heart of europe
that when islam came they already
believed in jesus but as a messenger
just like you gave that example about
the
the palestinian the christians from that
area who also didn't believe he was god
and a literal son of god but same thing
happened here so when islam came it fit
like a glove that pure monotheism and
they accepted it and this is uh why you
have the bosnians people there in this
area in bosnia uh the par primarily
they're muslims those who have submitted
to the one god so there's a lot of
people who can relate to that but you
see what you went through
yeah absolutely and and you know it's
very important to promote into faith
and
uh refer to people of other faith um
as well because
you know we all
pray to the one god
that's what unites us
and uh just as i would say to all the
brothers and sisters out there who may
follow different schools of thought who
may follow um
certain paths
i would say forget all of our
differences and focus on what unites us
and what unites us is the five pillars
of islam it's not rocket science it's
it's not you don't have to be a great
theologian to be able to understand the
five pillars of islam keep it simple
keep
you know
keep focusing on what unites us rather
than what divides us
what the
lesson that we have learned by watching
events in afghanistan is when you are
united
you can do amazing things
but when you were fractured and divided
you will struggle and i would point to
syria
a country which is in a desperate state
still in civil war
so
united we stand
divided we fall
thank you very much is that also right
behind you a copy of the quran
it is yes yes it is beautiful uh thank
you so much so advice read the quran
connect with the creator of the heavens
and the earth and that's what you did
you were sincere and let me ask you this
last thing were you because i i often
give this advice to people who are
struggling something very simple
just ask the creator alone just say
guide me guide me guide me at any point
did you within your heart did you ask
did you did you ask the creator alone
without any
intermediary for guidance
i talk to him all the time even now
and um you know
i've got a a picture not in this room
but with the 99 names of allah
um
i've got a hundreds and i often
have dialogue and and
um in private moments
talk and and uh
and that's important to keep those
channels open obviously in prayer
but um
i also you know have these private
moments as well where i'm
talking to him
and and asking
asking usually asking for wisdom
please give me some wisdom
all of us all of us thank you so much
for sharing your story with us here on
the dean show thank you
thank you eddie peace be with you
assalamu alaikum
salam and there you have it
we're trying to figure out
because there's a lot of things
happening out in the world and now they
try to bring islam into islam does this
islam does that all the negative things
so now when people are adhering to islam
you got the
not the subjugation or oppression of
women you got the liberation you got
people getting their rights you got
people
living purpose
and that's when you experience solace
that's when you know
that now you are
on a goal and that goal is not to just
build every house
acquire every position get make all the
money and now put all your chips in one
basket for this life no islam helps you
to go ahead and prepare not to just
totally disattach from this life we say
give us the best in this life and the
best in the hereafter
so
i hope that you got to benefit because
that's what we're trying to do we're
trying to live
a good wholesome righteous life
worshiping one and only god the creator
of the heavens and the earth the same
god that jesus worshipped moses abraham
and the last and final messenger sent to
mankind prophet muhammed peace
and blessings be upon them all so why
would a woman like this who's captured
and then given the quran looks into
islam
and then she ends up accepting it there
must be something there so invite you
to read the quran look into islam and do
the simplest thing that you could do ask
within yourself the creator that happens
on earth for guidance say guide me guide
me guide me why am i here
where am i going when i die
if you're out there put me on the way
that's pleasing to you and then be
sincere about it be courageous enough
when the truth comes to accept it we'll
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peace be with you assalamualaikum