to my brothers and sisters and all your
listeners whether you're an atheist Jew
or your Christian how can we deny the
Wess of our creator the one that gave us
life he's our sustainer we've read the
old and the New Testament now read the
final Al Quran has been sent to mankind
as a source of healing and guidance
revealed to Muhammad now it is recited
by one and six people across our sphere
start your journey here and if you're
really are sincere you come to conclude
Islam's the only way to go yo let them
know Eddie it's the dean radio show
alhamdulillah alaykum that is the
greeting of peace peace be unto you
thank you for tuning in to another
episode of the dean show you can catch
our TV
shows every week we have a new show you
can go to theen show.com and you can see
the showtimes for the TV shows there but
we also do a weekly radio
show and this week we have a
wonderful guest
DaNell who will be talking to it's very
incredible when we see the most
misunderstood way of life in the world
today Islam which it simply means to
acquire peace by submitting your will to
the will of the owner of Peace the
creator of the heavens and earth and
there are so many people that are
flocking to the most misunderstood yet
fastest growing way of life in the world
today and DaNell is one of those people
who we're gonna be talking to Danelle
asalam alaykum wum
Salam peace be unto you thank you for
finding the time to be with us here on
the dean show radio show if you don't
mind yes thank you so tell us we want to
kind of pick your brain we want to talk
to you because you are a
Christian who well you're yeah was you
were you were a Christian and you were
actually you're born bred and raised in
America yes so we want to talk to you
and we want to know because there's a
lot of misconceptions about Islam so a
woman in particular because you know
that a lot of the people who who are out
there they have a misconception they
think that Islam oppresses the woman
that Islam belittles the woman degrades
the woman takes her rights but now we
got twofold we have you being a
Christian not only a Christian but one
who went
to higher Heights meaning that you
actually went to like a seminary school
yeah so we're going to talk a little bit
about this and then we're going to want
to know like everyone wants to know why
would she become a Muslim did she get
another one bites the dust what's going
on so tell tell us a little bit about
your your history introduce yourself for
our audience please sure okay um well my
name is Donell and I am um a Seminary
graduate actually just recently I just
finished my master of divinity in may
this may and I have was raised as a
Christian I've been a lifelong Christian
as you said I was born and raised here
in the USA and um I've actually always
been active in the church um in some way
shape or form uh I grew up United
methodists um unlike some people um who
convert to other religions I actually
had a really good experience um as a
Christian in my denomination and um felt
very cared for and and I just think
overall had a really good experience in
My Religion so even my um my turning
towards Islam really didn't have
anything to do with um me not having a
good experience in my church upbringing
it was a lot of other things so um but I
did I did decide later in life um to
pursue more um of a vocation and
Ministry um I used to work as a music
Minister prior to this time but um I had
a life-changing experience that that led
me to where I wanted to pursue um more
strongly a vocation and serving God um
just full-time and so that's why I
decided to attend Seminary and I
attended with the intention of actually
becoming um an elder in the United
Methodist Church which is um the
equivalent of like a pastor or a priest
um for people out there who may not be
as familiar with um in Christianity
there are a lot of different ways that
you can serve in Ministry but but I
wanted to become um an ordained minister
that was my plan um when I entered into
Seminary so uh where would you like me
to go from here at what age did you
really get into wanting to serve your
creator at what age were you because
many young folks they're not thinking
about this and and a lot of times we get
caught up into the cultural norms and
people are going away from God a lot of
times nowadays but you were you were
going towards the Creator H how did this
come about well actually I mean for for
me personally I mean and I'm not saying
that I lived some kind of perfect life
but actually um when I was 12 I
experienced um the death of my oldest
sister and it was at this time in my
life that I really made the decision um
to turn to God and to to really put um
my trust in God and and really to depend
on God as like to carry me through this
time because I could feel that it was
going to be very difficult for my family
and you know I heard a lot of people
blaming God for for this happening and
and so for me it was really a decision
at a very early age to turn to God now I
didn't necessarily know that I would be
pursuing some kind of vocation um in
Ministry or wanting to to serve in in my
job but it was it was from that point
forward that I always had a commitment
in the church um when I went into
college though there was a time where I
I really began to question um it's
pretty much right after high school I
think that's a typical time for a lot of
people to really maybe question their
religion or question their their
religious identity and so I did do a
little bit of exploring at that time um
but I didn't go too far away from
Christianity and um just with the
exception of looking at a little bit of
comparative religion courses and this
kind of thing I didn't actually you know
try to change my religion um but I so
from that time on I continued to be
involved in the church and like I said
eventually um I used to also do a lot of
work in performing arts and so while I
was involved in in church ministry I was
also working in the Arts and and kind of
carrying this over into music Ministry
and this kind of thing so this is just
something that I mean pretty much from
middle school forward I always um felt
very comfortable in in that religious
setting and in Christianity in
particular so so you're pretty much
living a normal life living in America
very intelligent you were going through
school high school college never diagnos
is
crazy no we we got to ask these these
questions that some people might be
thinking she might have lost her mind no
actually in in order to um actually in
order to pursue um
actually in order to pursue even
becoming an elder in my particular
denomination you have to undergo a
psychological evaluation so I passed
that okay that is that's a good point
you underwent a psychological evaluation
and you passed she passed that okay guys
and don't worry Islam another one B it
got me too Islam got me and I got so
many other people Islam which you know
if somebody's sincere and they want to
do what God wants to to do I mean you
know the Lord's Prayer don't you yes of
course and how does it go it says uh can
can you can you share it with us just
briefly sure Our Father who art in
heaven Hallowed be thy name your kingdom
come your will be done on Earth as is as
it is in heaven give us this day our
daily bread forgive us our sins or
trespasses as we forgive those who sin
or trespassed against us lead us not
into tempation but Deliver Us from Evil
for yours is the kingdom and the power
and the glory forever amen and amen look
at that right there it says your will be
done and that's Islam yes isn't it it's
right there the signs are there cuz
Islam is about submitting your will to
the will of the Creator it's not named
after a person place or thing or
anything in creation so absolutely
anyone who wants to do God's will not
their desires Islam will get you that's
right it's not theie toally agree Islam
it got me and it got so many other
Americans and we're not about terrifying
people we're not about blowing things up
we're people who just want peace we want
peace with ourselves with mainly with
the Creator and all those people around
us including Jews and Christians and
everybody of God's creation so let's
continue on so now Seminary school what
what is Seminary school well Seminary
school I mean yeah a lot of people hear
that word and they're like what is that
and and basic basically the word
Seminary um just just think of it in
terms of having an upper L upper level
religious education so people who are in
seminary are getting graduate degrees
which is like some kind of master's
degree or they can also be in seminary
school to receive a doctorate or PhD so
um this is this is what you do for
Seminary it is a graduate school and so
I entered into to Seminary and with the
intention as I said of becoming a pastor
and whenever a person enters into
Seminary they have to choose their focus
um you know if you want to teach then
you do some kind of theological studies
degree if you um if you want to work as
um in music Ministry or maybe pastoral
care and counseling or something like
this you can get a master's of Arts um
but if you want to pursue any kind of
leadership as a pastor an elder um
Deacon something like this then you
would be you would do a master of
divinity which is a little more in-depth
study of of your particular religion and
so so in my case of course I was
studying Christianity so Seminary is an
opportunity for a person to really delve
into their religion um to become in a
sense more of an expert in that area um
and and if you have the the desire to
serve in the church which is what I was
doing then you also put a lot of your
time and emphasis on um practice that is
prayer um leadership within worship
these kinds of things and so um so
that's what that's what I was doing in
seminary so tell tell us now what were
your beliefs before what what did you
you believed in God obviously and what
were some of the rituals what did you
believe about God and what were some of
the rituals that you would do to get
close to God okay well um prayer number
one is is something that I've always
done and um and something that I have
always enjoyed doing um both privately
and in the context of my community and
so um you know prayer definitely is is
probably the number one thing um also
just praising God um you know reading
scripture um were in the in the context
of of a group um either a small group or
even by myself um so some form of Bible
study um also song or singing um I used
to do a lot of cantering which is like
singing the Psalms it's actually as I
was learning about Islam I mean it's
it's I mean the whole Quran is
essentially sung I mean it's it's
recited in this very melodic way and um
and this is what I used to do when I
would caner sometimes for worship and
this kind of thing where I'd recite the
Psalms and so um so prayer and and um
reading scripture and then also um then
reading aloud or or worshiping um in
this kind of way I used to actually do
um some preaching and so one thing that
I really enjoyed doing is what we call
ex of Jesus which is like learning about
the past context in which um the
scriptures what was going on at the time
and place when the scriptures were were
written um you know what happened what
was happening in the societies at this
time and then elaborating on that of
course in preaching or in in writing and
so so these are the kinds of things that
I was involved with and and doing and um
I I mean because of my experience in
performing arts and stuff I I really
liked um writing prayers or or you know
saying prayers this kind of thing um
that was that was more or less what I I
did in the context of worship and
practice so now we mentioned God yes and
yes you believed in God but what was
your concept of
God well prior to entering into Seminary
I mean I've always had a very I mean
I've never not believed in God I can't
remember a time in my life even as a
child because I was always in the church
but I can't ever remember a time where I
didn't believe in God and and when I say
that what I'm talking about is God of
the Universe I mean actually it's it's
it's the god that's that that's preached
about in Islam I mean the god of the
Quran it's it's this same concept this
is actually the lord of the Universe I
mean my concept of God was always
something that was um just ineffable
something that's Indescribable that we
can't see and fully comprehend that it's
it's really beyond our um our
understanding and yet we have creation
around us to be able to to see what God
is like and so this was always my my
perception of God now as a Christian of
course as you know um there's there's
the
trinitarian formula there's a
trinitarian belief there's the belief
that that Jesus is not only um you know
a child of God a Son of God like like
everyone else but that Jesus is also
Divine this is the predominant view in
Christianity and so you know I was told
this but actually most of my life I I
struggled on some level trying to
understand that concept I didn't
announce this to anyone yes um I mean
maybe in a smaller context I might do
that when in conversation with friends
or or even you know with my pastor
sometimes asking these questions I
really didn't understand how it was
possible but I sometimes would just
chalk it up to being part of the mystery
that is God I mean you know I'm like
well God is mysterious and so is this
you know I I can't fully understand this
but I can just accept it at that and um
and so always I had the strongest belief
that that that God that there was a God
that was beyond our comprehension that
was the lord of the universe creator of
everything um and then I also knew that
that there were prophets and and I tried
to understand Jesus is God as well and
but when I entered
Seminary you can't go into
Seminary and Waffle I mean you have to
make a decision and I know I'm jumping
around here a bit but I think this is a
really important thing tell us please
yes yes to to to illustrate when a
person goes into Seminary and I don't
think there's any person out there
listening who hasn't gone to Seminary
that will disagree with this but you
learn so many things
that in in some respects you have to
unlearn what you've been taught and then
relearn with all this new
information and so even for myself as I
entered in and you know I've always been
a fairly open-minded person um like I
said I've always had this Rock Solid
belief in God and and I've tried to
understand the Trinity you know i' I've
I've Loved worshiping God my whole life
Christianity was my religion so you know
I wasn't about to to just leave it
behind
but when I took for example church
history and I began we be we were
exploring these early groups of
Christians and the the various
perspectives of these theologians and
these Bishops and even just the early
Christian communities I mean it's clear
when you're taking this kind of class
that the Christianity we know today and
in all of her forms it evolved over a
process that was both
theologically influenced but also
politically influenced and so you know
essentially for decades Christian and
Christians and Christian leaders in the
church were trying to decide exactly how
to perceive and understand Jesus and
they didn't necessarily agree and so
this is this is something you learn
right off the bat when you enter into
Seminary and you're taking these classes
I mean you're delving into this on a
deeper level than you ever had even if
you've had you know even if you got your
undergraduate degree in religion or
something I mean Seminary takes you then
to the next level and so so just to
continue on that path of of you know
early church history I mean in short
through Decades of of various councils
um you know eventually it was through a
process of
elimination and and by attaching the
label of heresy that Christianity
evolved and the voices that went out
were the ones who said Jesus had these
two Natures that were both human and
divine but that were one substance of
like God and so that that Jesus was
essentially not subordinate to God but
equal to God because they were of the
same substance so so as I'm as I'm in
this class and I'm thinking about my own
my own experiences as a Christian and my
own questioning you know just realizing
that as human beings we always try to
make sense of what God reveals to us I
mean through the prophets through our
scriptures this is this is what we do as
humans we try to understand what God has
placed before us and so I'm in these
classes and I'm sitting here thinking
about all of this and I'm looking at all
of these these people from the past and
these early Christian communities and
these early religious leaders and they
were trying to do the same thing they
were trying to make sense of Jesus
Christ I mean what do we what do we do
with him and essentially you know I
really was actually found myself at
times sympathizing with some of the
Heretics because I could understand the
reasoning I mean I could understand how
they could come to the conclusion they
were coming to and and yet as I said
through a process of elimination
eventually there came to be this
predominant view which was incorporated
into what we now call the nying Creed
and it was adopted and it's officially
still the doctrine of like the Roman
Catholic Church the Anglican Church the
Eastern Orthodox church and most most
Mainline
Protestants but I remember sitting in
class and thinking you know who really
has the authority to decide this you
know was does the majority have the
authority to decide this the most
powerful and were they right and and so
these are these are questions that I was
asking myself my first year Seminary but
essentially and any person really has to
do this if you want to continue as a
religious leader in Christianity or
probably any other religion for that
matter but you have to make a decision
whether you're going to question or
whether you're going to continue on and
I decided that I needed just accept and
go on and that's what I did until um a
year ago so we're we're talking to
Donell who has a master's degree she
just graduated for Seminary school she
is a very courageous person obviously
who loves the Creator and wants to do
God's Will and she's doing it now so you
mentioned
Heretics and who labels a person a
heretic back then was
this the Heretics obviously what what is
a a heretic is someone who's going
against what the majority are going or
what what what is a what's considered a
heretic a heretic would be yeah I mean
today a heretic would be someone who um
who tries to say something that is
outside of what has been decided within
the doctrine of the church so at the
time I me I mean for several actually it
was over a several centuries that that
um various councils were held with the
religious leaders or the Bishops that at
that time and essentially these councils
they would gather um now again you have
and I I won't get into too many details
details here maybe we can do this on
another show but um but essentially a
heretic then would be someone who is
outside of what is the majority view or
the or the doctrinal view at that time
how many years later were these councils
held later meaning when Jesus had left
the scene centuries I mean yes um the
Council of um Caledon I believe that was
325 and so we're talking yeah we're
talking centuries later they were
debating this for for for a very long
time okay so now what happens is there
are people early people who are trying
to follow the true message of Jesus
peace be upon him which was pure
monotheism and these people obviously
they were there they didn't believe that
Jesus was God they beli that he was a
mighty messenger of God is this correct
yes yeah I mean and it can be extremely
um confusing to try to look back and and
you see all these different groups and
you're thinking okay they believe this
and they believe that but but what you
will find is that a large large large
majority of these early Christian groups
um did not you know did not hold the the
the dominant view that we have today of
Christianity which is the one that I
just said
um a moment ago that is the official
doctrine of of
these you know of the of the largest
bodies of Christianity I mean this is
not this was not at that time the
dominant view this wasn't prevalent at
that time no there were I mean because
you had all these small communities in
in various places it wasn't like they
were all isolated in one little place
and and everybody had the same
perspective I mean you had you know if
you take Jesus Christ and you take the
people that were around him and then
they disperse in their communities and
then those people you know over time
Jesus didn't come back they all many
people expected him to come back right
away and he didn't and so they had to
then figure out okay what do we do from
here and how do we continue this message
how do we continue um to live as
Christians and so you had you had some
people who were Jews who were who were
followers of Jesus um you had Gentiles
you had people who were outside of of
the Jewish population who were also
followers and so you had various
communities um of people who were coming
under basically under this um under the
message of Jesus Christ but but they
were coming out of different communities
and so they didn't start the same way
and and Jesus wasn't there to continue
leading them and so they were they were
under these various followers I mean so
so essentially you have different groups
of people trying to to
understand um you know who Jesus was how
they were to continue to follow him and
live in community with one another and
follow the his message which was from
God and so but but as I said the The
doctrinal View that we have today was
not necessarily the dominant view at
that time in fact it wasn't I mean there
were many many other groups that had um
that had differing perspectives of
Jesus's divinity now they're not they
weren't all exactly the same either but
they weren't necessarily saying that
Jesus was God and that's that's
something that that people don't
necessarily realize I mean Mainline
Christians may not realize that I mean
it's not like Christianity just came
down and suddenly there was this very
clear way that we were supposed to
believe everything we we we've covered a
lot of other shows and I've can't come
to as many have that we know that human
beings they kind of tend to go towards
the easier route you know like I'm into
physical fitness and I train people and
many people they don't want to do the
hard work it takes a lot of work to get
in shape some people many people they
fall for the quick pill you think you
take the pill and you're going to lose
100 pounds just off taking this magic
pill they don't exist so what we see is
the the pure monotheistic message of
Jesus peace be upon Him of Moses and all
the messengers you had to prove prove
your love by action you had to keep the
Commandments of God you had to do God's
will and you had to do all the good
stuff God told you to do but we see that
and if you can elaborate on this just
quickly before we we want to go back
into your story but from talking to
other uh Bible scholars and other people
that I've interviewed it seems like this
other message that was coming where Paul
got in the mix he said you know what
circumcision is in the
heart and the law has been nailed to the
cross all you got to do now is believe
that seems like a real easy cell is easy
now you don't have to do all the work
you don't have to do anything you just
got to say yeah I believe so did you did
you kind of see this happening where
where it was like the the the the the
majority started to Lear towards the
easier route rather than what was truth
and what was the correct message of
Jesus which was pure monotheism and The
Trinity he never obviously uttered this
or did he did he ever say trinity out of
his mouth no Jesus never said Trinity
out of his mouth and I think there's one
thing that that cannot be denied in the
scriptures and I if it can be then I'd
let I'd love for someone to to show this
to me but you have a just just for our
listeners you're master in Divinity so
you're not someone who just picked up
the Bible yesterday no no um and I don't
pretend to be the ultimate Authority
either so I I of course there's always
something to learn so but but if there's
one one thing that's clear to me in all
of the gospels is that
Jesus never acted like he was equal to
God he always acted like he was
subordinate to God that that he was a
servant of God and he didn't say worship
me and he didn't say believe in the
Trinity I mean it
was that part is clear that much is
clear and yes the Apostle Paul now some
people actually and I was one of them um
growing up it wasn't always clear to me
like who was the disciples and who
wasn't and and I always thought Paul was
a disciple when I was a kid I just
assumed that this was the case because
many of the the letters in the New
Testament um some of which historians
have actually refuted and said no we
don't think these were actually written
by Paul but there are some letters that
they do believe were absolutely for sure
written by Paul in the New Testament but
but Paul was not Paul never directly
knew Jesus Christ he wasn't a disciple
of Jesus Apostle no he wasn't a disciple
of Jesus never met Jesus no now well no
never okay not in life I mean he was not
one of the TW that walked you know or or
part of the community that walked with
Jesus he was after so he was he was a
disciple in sense in the sense of being
a follower of Jesus Christ but not while
Jesus was alive he came after and so so
Paul was a leader an early Christian
leader he was someone who was trying to
a s in a sense mobilize these
communities and he had to work with you
know he would go to these various
communities and he would try to work
with them and you know he had his hands
full I mean essentially this is my take
I mean he had his hands full with these
diverse groups of people and he had to
come up with a way um you know he had to
try to unify them under the the message
of Jesus Christ and which he believed
and he was trying to carry forth in
practice but he could see for himself
these these challenges these between
working with people who had maybe been
pagans before you know believed in in
multiple gods or or had some other kind
of religious practice as well as having
people who had been you know Jewish who
had been practicing um you know Judaism
and so which that term back then was not
necessarily like the predominant term
but I'm so I'm using a modern day term
but anyway I think you understand that
that you had these various communities
and Paul was going to these communities
and he was trying to to bring them
together and and like you said I
mean to try to unify a community is is
not an easy thing when there's not um a
common denominator in the culture or the
practice or or whatever is already
happening and so you know the idea was
we are unified in Jesus Christ I mean
this is so this is what he was trying to
do and but yeah there there are
theological um IDE IDE that are are
brought in through Paul that are not
necessarily clear in the New Testament
um and as I said Paul was not a disciple
of Jesus Christ and this is this is
something that can be confusing when
you're growing up um and you know again
you you just you you're you're taught
certain things you learn certain things
I don't think anyone will come out and
try to teach you Paul was a disciple but
it can be you know as a child as a youth
as whatever if no one tells you
otherwise it's easy to to believe this
because you know again like even with
these letters that are attributed to the
Apostle Paul in in the New Testament now
we know from historians going back and
and examining this and and really
looking closely that that some of these
letters weren't actually written by Paul
cannot be attributed to him specifically
and so it's it can become very
complicated so this is what you're
uncovering in seminary school that some
of the letters that are attributed to
Paul they're not by Paul how about the
gospel the gospel right Matthew Mark
Luke and John where many people believe
that these are the Disciples of Jesus
peace be upon him who are writing these
books is this actually fact or fiction
um actually the truth of the matter is
the the gospels were not recorded until
after Jesus peace be upon Him died and
so or was gone was taken back to God and
so you have these you have these gospels
and and basically I mean the earliest
the the earliest date that they can
provide is from the gospel of Mark now
these are the ones that are canonical
okay um again now we have other other um
gospels being uncovered um you know
which I won't elaborate too much on
those because I myself still have a lot
to learn with these other like Gospel of
Thomas and and some of these other
gospels that have been discovered that
are not canonical and what canonical
means is these are the these are the
books that were essentially taken into
um place with the Hebrew with the Torah
with the Torah the Hebrew scriptures um
that Mainline churches use now Roman
Catholic churches and some other um
churches also use some other um
scripture which is called Apocrypha
which is not necessarily in the
canonical um Bible that um like
Protestants use but um sorry I'm just
throwing a lot out a lot of information
here but the but what I wanted to say
about the gospels is like the go Gospel
of um of Mark is considered to be our
earliest source and this was actually
they they they usually say that the date
is somewhere be between 65 and I believe
like 72 um ad so this is or BCE
depending on what you um kind of 70
years after Jesus peace be upon Him left
the scene yes and I meant to say CE
which means um Common Era so yes so
right so 65 to 72 somewhere in this
range is when they believe that the
earliest manuscripts of like the gospel
of Mark can be attributed okay so so
right so this is this is after many
years after
um and with each
gospel there
is the author or authors of those
gospels um again when when a person
studies these more in depth and and even
with a seminary education a person is
really only scratching the surface I
mean the true scholars in each of these
gospels there are people who just
specifically pick one gospel and that's
what they study for their PHD or
something yes or maybe just a small
paropy you know of one of these gospels
but but with each
gospel there is also an I hate to use
this word but there's an agenda because
there's a community in which this gospel
is coming out of and a and the community
in which this gospel is being prescribed
to and so um there are sources that some
of and and through through various study
again of these scriptures I mean
it's um historians Bible historians have
been able to uncover this but but there
is there is
um I mean there's a community that these
are being written from and for and so
that's why there are some differences in
the storytelling that's why there are
some there is a Common Thread which is
Jesus Christ but there are also
differences in the telling of the story
there are also differences in the
overall message the Gospel of John for
example is is quite different from
Matthew Mark and Luke and and and this
is is very clear from the very beginning
um of the Gospel of John and so if a
person really wants to to know more
about if they're Christian and they
really want to know more about
Christianity and they don't want to just
take it at face value I think it's it's
really helpful even if you don't choose
another path I mean to really know what
it is that you are are are studying what
it is you're believing what it is and
and to take
these these Concepts into consideration
um tell us so were these the actual
disciples who are writing these books no
they're not so this is a fact now that
Matthew Mark Luke and John who wrote
these
books more than likely followers of
those disciples followers of so do are
because it says Matthew uh the B The
Gospel according to Matthew so if we dig
deeper are a lot of these we don't even
know we can't pinpoint like if we want
call the witness forward in the court of
law to evaluate who this person was did
he have a WAP sheet what was his
intention why was he writing this is he
a credible witness can we bring that
person who's writing any one of the four
gospels or many of the other books can
we put them on the stand do we know who
these people are you said you said no no
and you this is very this is very
important because this is salvation this
is we want to do God's will but now
we're taking things blindly and C in
something that we don't know who these
people are right and and it's not it's
not to say that that for this reason the
scripture doesn't hold Worth or you know
to negate that that there is a message
from Allah that was or from God that was
carried you know in these scriptures I'm
not trying to invalidate any of that
it's just the the fact of the matter
is we know how old the earliest
manuscripts of of these particular
gospels are we're able to at least date
those I mean we have the technology we
have the the um we have the ability to
be able to do that now but the but what
we can't determine you know absolutely
is who wrote who wrote them and we have
I mean each gospel again I mean you can
study each one by itself and do PhD on
it so I'm I'm just giving a very um
General commentary on these but but with
each with each
gospel um more than lik they were
written by followers of either first
generation or second generation
followers of the disciples so these
people would have had familiarity with
with that particular um disciple or that
that particular
community's understanding of of Jesus
Christ um would have had some of the um
been able to share some of the same
resources um and this was an oral
Community I mean even more so than when
when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
was alive I mean this was not a
community where things were written down
this was also I mean similarly um an
oral Community where things were recited
there were people who memorized there
were people who who would then of course
you know recite things that they learned
from memory because there was just it it
wasn't like today where we can have a
book published or we can grab some paper
and write things down I mean it was it
was an oral community so so when these
were finally recorded I mean they were
from an oral tradition and so that's why
even within the context of the gospels
you I mean historians um archaeologists
the people that find these documents
will find um differences in them as well
so tell us uh sister we're here with for
those just joining us we're here with
sister DaNell who has a masters in
Divinity who just graduated for Seminary
School born bred American
who accepted the call to acquire peace
from the owner of Peace the creator of
the heavens and the Earth and this whole
universe and everything in it and you
had that embedded in you that's who you
believed in and now let's come back we
kind of went off on a tangum here we're
going to have to come back and do other
shows on some of these details but we
want to go back to your story sir you
you have so much knowledge in this area
and it's exciting asking you these
question so inshallah God willing we'll
have you back several more times but
tell us now so you believed in the
creator of the universe the creator of
all things as a Christian but now you're
entering Seminary school there's the
concept of Trinity father son Holy Ghost
Jesus is intertwined in this and there's
something that you know it's not making
sense and you're finding all these other
things out that you're questioning
you're seeing the early Christians who
didn't believe that Jesus was God they
believed that he was ORD to God that he
was a messenger of God and this is
what's making more sense so where does
the story go from here what happens next
well so essentially I I shut off all
those questions I decided that I needed
to continue to focus you know I needed
to just move on ahead this was my
religion I needed to accept this I
needed to believe it and you know
through so in short I continued taking
the theology I took other church history
you know and I just accepted it you know
this was my religion I had no reason to
to change it I wanted to worship God I I
it wasn't enough to get me to look
outside the box I mean I still had the
same desire to serve and and this was my
religion so um you know so I believed
and I kept practicing and I and I had no
reason to
question until um well and so however in
the meantime you know I I was all in all
I was in seminary four years and during
my first three years of Seminary I you
know it's impossible not to experien
Life Changes in three years period of
time and so I went through some major um
personal life changes in that time um
that had a that didn't impact my faith
in God but it definitely had me
beginning to question my path as far as
my vocation because there's a lot of
responsibility placed on a person who
chooses to be you know a religious
leader an elder or something like this
and I just found myself in a in a place
where I wasn't really sure if this was
the right time in my life to pursue that
that path and so I began to question
what God may have me do instead in the
meantime and about the same time that I
was I was really questioning this um
wholeheartedly this was about it one
year ago um maybe a little more than
that actually it was a little more than
that um I befriended my first Muslim and
up to that point I didn't have any
Muslim friends I mean i' I'd met Muslims
in my life but I had never met anyone
and become friends with someone who is
Muslim
and I really had a lot of respect for
this person and we had a lot of
religious conversations and it was just
apparent to me that I really knew
nothing about Islam and I felt deficient
as uh as someone who wanted to be a
religious leader especially in um the
Chicago area which is a really diverse
religious area that I I really needed to
take it upon myself to learn more about
Islam and I wanted to like I just felt a
curiosity I felt um just out of respect
for this other person and and also just
feeling like I as a religious leader
should learn more about Islam and maybe
even other religions as well but I
decided to focus on Islam and I had a
requirement that I needed to complete
for my degree which was my
cross-cultural um it's called
cross-cultural requirement and I decided
I would study Islam and so I mean to
summarize this part you know I basically
devised a study plan um a you know
graduate level I I found a woman who
lived here um who was Muslim she's
originally from Syria who was willing to
be like my interpreter for this
experience that I could ask questions as
I was reading about Islam I was reading
the Quran someone that I could go to and
really ask her questions um but I began
to pursue these studies
and and even before I started meeting
with her like I was just intrigued I was
really intrigued with Islam and it I was
one thing I was really intrigued by was
was just how clear everything was and
clear clear
Lucid yes like no no confusion there no
almost to the point though where I was
uncomfortable because I was so used to
ambiguity I was so used to having to
figure things out or being comfortable
with my all the different opinions yes
and so here I was reading the Quran
which was just like saying of course
this is translation but you know just
reading these things very clear and so
I'm I'm preparing this study you know
I've I've um been able to um contact
this woman but this was all um I didn't
start meeting with her until after
Ramadan and I decided kind of my pre
sort of to my studies with her and in
conversation with this with this other
friend that I was like you know I think
the best way for me to really understand
what it is to be a Muslim is is through
practice like you know and and I was
still a Christian I wasn't necessarily
trying to you know like convert myself
or anything like this I just I really
wanted to in a sense like understand
what it was to be Muslim like to feel
that and as as someone who practiced
religion as someone who who this was a
very important part of my life I thought
well the best way for me to do that is
through practice and so I chose to fast
during Ramadan um and this was like sort
of the beginning of of my practice but
it was it was just as in solidarity as a
Christian at the time but even this
alone had a lifechanging impact on me
because I would never look at Food the
same again after this and during that
time I had a like a deeper awareness of
my own body and the difference between
my bodily needs and wants and how and
and all of that in context of my
relationship with with God in a way that
I had never experienced before and
actually even as a Christian all the
times I'd read about Jesus fasting like
even that made sense to me more after
fasting and ramadon with Muslims than it
did when I was a Christian so you were
trying experimenting with one of the
pillars of Islam we know Islam yes is
based on Five Pillars to declare that
there's none worthy of worship there's
no deity there's no God except God and
Muhammad is the last and final messenger
well this would include Jesus Moses and
all the messengers and then the prayer
five times a day and the giving of the
charity the poor D TX and then the
fasting so you were trying one of the
pillars of Islam and it's having an
incredible effect on you absolutely
absolutely that was the first one and
then when I started meeting with this
woman here um of course as I said she
was from Syria originally and so she was
also fluent in Arabic and so I could ask
her anything related to the Quran I
could ask her and she she was just an
excellent resource for me and she was
neither of my Muslim friends ever tried
to to convert me in fact they they and
they even told me reminded me that that
no matter what that I was always going
to be their friend that they had respect
for me and but they were so hospitable
and and she was always welcoming me into
her home and one of the things I wanted
to learn about of course was Salah and
and So
eventually you know we we went through
Salah Salah is the the second pillar of
Islam now yes the the the the prayer
forum and so um we went through each
part of Salah you know i' printed off um
a transliteration slash um
interpretation of you know English
translation of of Salah we went through
each part she she recited for me the the
Arabic using the transliteration so that
I could understand what she was saying
and and she talked to me about each of
the parts and then eventually in another
one of our meetings she said that she
would do the prayer for me and this of
course included woodoo and
so I watched her doing wo and while I
was watching her wo is like what
preparation to prey like the the washing
Evolution yeah Evolution so it's a way
the way that that to I think to explain
it to non-christians it was it was it
would be like you know Sunday morning
people get up to go to church maybe they
bathe Saturday night or Sunday morning
but you know it's like people put on
their Sunday Best before they go and
worship God and it's the same premise
with doing wo or ablution you cleanse
your body it's a it's a physical
cleansing of your body so that you're
not only preparing your mind and your
heart for prayer but you're also
preparing your your body physically to
go before God so it's spiritual and
physical both yes spiritual and physical
both and so I'm watching her do wo and I
just my my eyes just started just
pouring Tears like I didn't really have
an explanation for it I'm just watching
her and I'm just feeling like I am
present on this this sacred act and um
she finished and she looked at me and
she asked me if I was okay and I said
yes and and we went down and you're
crying now I'm crying I'm just standing
there crying as I'm watching her do this
and um so you know I kind of dried my
tears and we went down and in her home
the way she has it set up she prays in a
different room so she she put on her
hijab and her skirt and and um she
prepared to do her prayer and she began
to do Salah and I just watched her and
it the interesting thing was is I felt
like the further she went into her
prayer like I felt like she moved
farther away from me and I found myself
just internally wanting to be with her
like wanting to pray with her wanting to
to be wherever she was I I just felt
like she was so focused on on God and so
I left I left that day I mean it was
just I I thanked her so much for that
and I just felt like it was oh go ahead
no I want to go back just for a minute
tell us because from reading the
description when you see in the Bible
allegedly how Jesus prayed it says he
went and and what is the gospel of
Matthew I believe that he went a little
further and he fell on his face and
prayed to God yes so was this like were
you putting it together like wow did
anything cross your mind like this is
kind of similar to now or the same way
cuz she's falling on her face she's
praying the same way that Jesus and all
the prophets peace be ofam they pray did
this cross your mind at all well yeah I
mean in a sense that crossed my mind but
also the fact that you know of course by
this time my friend had shared with me
that Muslims pray five times a day and
she told me the times of day and you
know one of these is is of course at
dawn and at night and there are many
times in in the um gospels where it is
written that Jesus went and prayed alone
or um you know at night or in the
morning I mean that Jesus was not
necessarily praying just randomly during
the day I mean that he had said times
that he went to pray it was it was often
alone and it was often in the dark it
was you know it's just just this concept
that wow you know and and there are I
mean in Christianity I mean not there
are different groups of Christians and
and some of them pray multiple times a
day and and this kind of thing but but
just
like you said looking at her and I'm
seeing her prostrate herself in a way
that I have never done myself and I've
never actually seen a Christian do and
yet I know that that Jesus Christ peace
be upon him that that he prostrated
himself in prayer to God likely this way
and yeah so I'm thinking about all of
these things and I'm thinking to myself
I want to do that and so I I did so that
was like the next thing that I the next
sort of practice I took on was to go
home
and of course again I'm still Christian
so you know I'm saying like pre- prayers
before these prayers saying okay God you
know I'm doing this because I want to
understand Islam more and I'm wanting to
pray to you I'm not trying to do
anything that's you know that that's
going to harm my salvation or something
like this you know because I didn't I
didn't want it to be wrong it didn't
feel wrong and I really wanted to just
praise God and I wanted to try to do to
prostrate myself in prayer in a way that
I'd never done before so everything felt
right from reading the translation of
the Quran which is the verbatim word of
God it felt right it it felt right doing
the evolution it felt fight uh right
fasting and then doing the prayer
everything felt good yes it felt like
wow it felt different I mean that was
the other thing is it it didn't feel
like you were doing something wrong now
and then at the same time you're asking
God that you're telling God that look
I'm I'm protect me or you were asking
him to guide you or you were
communicating with God and expressing
why you were doing this to him just to
cover your tracks and your bases so you
don't you don't get LED astray somehow
right exactly I I was exactly I was
communicating with God that you know
this is you know forgive me if I'm doing
something wrong or forgive me if this is
not the right path but you know it just
at this time I was really beginning to
to realize that I was going to have a
lot of questions but I just I just felt
like I had to do it I I it didn't feel
wrong it felt right and it was something
I wanted to try I I just had to try and
so um I went home that night and
actually the the day that I saw her do
woodoo and Salah was the day that I
first did A variation of it myself um I
at that night before I went to bed
instead of you know doing my other
prayers I decided I wanted to do this
and so I I went to the bathroom and I
took out my notebook and I followed my
notes and and I did wo and as I was
doing it actually I was thinking about
baptism I was thinking about Moses I was
thinking about the role that water has
played you know from the beginning of
time and the importance that water has
played in in a in a form of cleansing
ourselves before God and I was thinking
wow Muslims do this every time before
they pray they they do this and I just
thought that's incredible I just really
had a lot of respect for it and I found
myself very moved by by this act and
even that day I actually said shahada
which is you know I believe in only one
God and I believe that Muhammad was a
messenger of God because by that
point I did believe those things um and
I didn't feel like and all it is is to
to become one who has submitted entirely
to to the Creator you just have to say
that you have to believe that that
there's no God except God that nothing
in creation is God except the Creator
you distinguish God and you separate him
from his creation the universe and
everything else has been created by the
Creator and that's the Creator who
created everything who I want to worship
and then I Believe In The Messengers
that he sent yes and so so simple it was
simple it was simple and clear and so I
I finished woodo and I went out and I
didn't actually try to pray Salah
because again I was just learning you
know and all of this but it was
important to me that I did sjta which is
where you prostrate yourself with your
head to the floor and I wanted to do
that I wanted to pray this way and you
know the first time I did it it felt a
little awkward because i' never done it
before I wasn't sure that I had my body
quite balanced the way it needed to be
but I continued to do this every night
for weeks after this and each time I
would add in a little bit more of of the
actual prayer of Salah and what I found
was you know I was also thinking about
my life I was thinking about my sins I
was thinking about repentance
in a way as I was learning about Islam
that I'd never done before and really
wanting to take personal responsibility
for myself and my actions and the ways
that I had strayed from God and I found
repentance and salvation in a way I had
never experienced before and it was with
my head to the floor and it was
incredible for me I mean I I I could not
turn away from that I mean to me this is
what it's
about and so you know obviously I was in
a in in a in a difficult position of
here I am learning something that's
that's challenging me theologically but
also impacting me on a deeply spiritual
level that I just could not turn away
from we're we're almost at a this was a
a double treat double episode with no
breaks and we're almost out of time but
we're going to have to because there we
didn't even scratch the surface and I'm
sure everybody is just excited and their
ears are glued to the speakers and
they're listening and they wanting to
know more but we're almost out of time
for this week would you agree to come
back and talk with us some more I would
love to do that I would it would be my
pleasure that would be great we just uh
we got a a minute and a half left so
tell us are you oppressed now because uh
just briefly okay you you accepted Islam
we're going to in the next episode talk
more about some of your challenges that
you went through and and some more of
your story but now just just for those
who might be thinking that look did she
not look into Islam deeper you see Islam
impresses woman the woman it takes away
her rights etc etc obviously you dug
deep into it and you investigated this
and what would you say to someone who
asked you this just real
short look more closely and ask a Muslim
woman um if she's oppressed because this
was also the misconception I had and
again I was studying Islam as a
Christian as a woman who was studying to
be a pastor you know it was really
important for me to feel like I had um
equality that uh that my perspective
would be represented and so of course
when I was studying Islam like I wanted
to know are they oppressed what's the
story here but after I began reading the
Quran and after I began looking more
closely and also as I began to meet more
Muslims Muslim women in
particular I realized that the Iran is
far more clear about the rights that
women has uh the rights that women have
um gives them property rights it gives
them it gives them rights a woman can
get divorced a woman has rights to an
education um there is equity in the
Quran for women in ways that is not
clearly defined in both the Torah and
the New Testament and so for me this was
incredible and as far as hijab I know
we're basically out of time but as far
as hijab and covering goes um this may
be a topic for another day but but this
is actually a way of protecting a woman
not of oppressing a woman and it's a
woman's Choice it's her virtue men have
their own um mandates in the Quran
things that that they are asked to
follow but this is something that a
woman chooses for herself and it's a way
of protecting herself and saying look at
my mind not my body this is this is this
is who I am and I'm not a piece of meat
so don't look at me that way do you feel
liberated now Yes actually I was before
I was even a Muslim I was thinking I
wonder if I can get away with wearing
hijab as a Chris wow this is amazing we
got so much more to talk about thank you
we're going to have you inshallah back
next week to do part two of this
wonderful interview and we thank
everyone for tuning in you got to learn
what Islam is is simply to acquire peace
we all want peace but Islam is calling
you to submit to the owner of Peace the
one Creator the creator of Jesus Moses
the creator of this whole universe and
everything in it turn to him ask him
alone to guide you and then be
courageous enough and be ready to do his
will to do all the good that he's called
you to do and this is what Donell did
she submitted to the one God and she's
here to talk about her story and we're
out of time so she's going to come back
inshallah God willing next week thank
you very much much Donell we'll see you
next week here on the dean radio show
thank you so much thank you may God
Almighty Allah reward you assalam
alayum
peace FR holy
peace