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but the university losantiville and
what's interesting if you look up here
you're gonna see on top of the
university the what resembles the the
Kaaba of Mecca that's the prayer
facility can you see that all the way up
on top right there and then you got
another one who can't see it's right up
there but we're a little bit too close
and that wasn't my question as they did
that to resemble the the Kaaba in Mecca
so we're here at the University and said
I've Oh
and we're meeting up with a an American
professor who accepted Islam that's your
history
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are you a professor yes I am professor
one Kaminsky Kaminsky is from Chicago
yes
we found them how are you doing good how
are you all good Chicago in our south
suburbs Northwest Indiana I'm 20 minutes
south of Chicago from Chicago to Indiana
to Bosnia the job work in
muslim-majority countries so this sort
of perfect opportunity and I've been
here now for news starting a fourth year
and not only that and then you actually
accepted Islam yes I did about ten years
ago ten years ago what do you teach you
in the universe I have a political
scientist who focuses on political
theory political philosophy Islamic
political thought so I'm interested in
these topics the intersection of Western
Islamic thought
for me it's very important all right you
got the refresher connects a little
these show the morning we're in
Pennsylvania Pennsylvania what's your
name
jarrod bell how you doing Jerry good how
about yourself all right good thing God
how'd you end up in Bosnia I was doing
research and I'm getting a job in Osaka
City
Dober all right we know assert some
interesting people I told you we're
going to be bringing so many different
faces so what's your experience but how
long you been here I've been here for a
year and probably did we secure about a
years of great really friendly here
sometimes the bureaucracy is a little
bit difficult but otherwise it's great
people really really help forward and
what do you think you know back to the
disha we do we turn to Spelman in this
but you're living in the pradhan they
don't listen majority country or do you
feel threatened at all what's not if you
feel like there's a bunch of terrorists
or no of course not most of my friends
are Bosnia
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so you you know we try to get people to
most people who travel they make the
human connection of course if you know
people who are stuck maybe in some
Mississippi Alabama some course in you
know rural area you know they what
advice do you have for that maybe they
turn it on and start I think some of the
key advice I think it's even before I
I'm not a Muslim by the way but I should
attend the Islamic Center the Pittsburgh
and I would meet someone go with my
friends it was a good eye opener to
Islam and what the religion was really
about or what lessons were really about
and actually some of the friends I had
it from the margin were some of the most
wonderful people I've ever met in my
life so I think people really have to
open up and educate themselves and he's
kind of you know meet with your neighbor
and get to know them and I think for
such a diverse country like the United
States there's so many opportunities to
actually experience other cultures and
people miss out on that unfortunately
beautiful advice make the human
connection definitely here in Bosnia -
thank you so what were professor Joseph
and we found them out of all places in
Bosnia Sarajevo professor take us
through a little bit of your journey in
the beginning before you were Muslim and
how you took that turn that you started
to really contemplate on the purpose of
life and because that's where you got to
be you got to be wondering why am I
created why am I here take us to those
beginnings my beginnings uh
sort of interesting I grew up in Indiana
what the college is Rutgers University
which is New Jersey where I had my first
exposure to Islam and I know nothing
about it and I was actually in New
Jersey with 9/11 happens right and
there's a very traumatic experience at
many levels but at no point that I
really ever connect terrorism to Islam I
just saw that some crazy bad people
blowing stuff up so this connection ever
happened so this was like you know this
LA was never an issue and I never
thought about it I was always believed
in kind of now I was glued to one guy
but I didn't really have
to fall on I grew up Roman Catholic but
I could never really accept many of the
doctrines that are foundational Catholic
theology so I was I was agnostic until I
was in my mid-20s and was in graduate
school I was given the opportunity to
teach for one year at Brooklyn College
and the Brooklyn College is a
fascinating place because a very very
unique student body which I would say is
about a quarter about a third Jewish
about a third Muslim and the rest
Christians so it's very different than
most places the United States and one of
the first things I don't know when I was
teaching because I was like 24 two times
so many my students were almost my age
was I'll be very honest I was very
impressed with the manners with the
identity of the brothers I met her in
college many of whom I'm still very
close with today believe it or not one
of the first people I actually
encountered at Brooklyn College was
Muhammad El Shaarawy
who you probably familiar with now he's
quite popular very popular media
presence and so I actually met a lot of
really very well mannered brothers and
this was the first thing that drew me
into it was meeting these people who
didn't use bad language who didn't talk
about girls didn't talk about any drunk
shook hands introduced themselves the
Salam alaikum which I didn't know what
it meant so this is like my first
exposure to Islam was this the Adam of
the people and as I continued my venture
in New York I just seen him run into
Muslims was like a lot smolla had a plan
for me to meet these people and finally
I realized that I wanted to understand
this religion better
I didn't get it I just knew that it was
something different so I finally
purchased a copy of the Quran the
Pickthall translation actually which I
have somewhere still I read this
translation and it was really uh it
changed everything changed my entire
trajectory of life honestly so as the
people who I met that first got me
interested and then the book had me sold
it really answered all the questions
that I had prior to becoming a Muslim it
addressed all the questions that
Christianity seemed to leave open and I
remember looking at
mirror and I felt something I've never
felt before and I can't even say I've
ever felt since it's sinking feeling in
my stomach I felt like I was on a roller
coaster I remember thinking oh my god
I'm a Muslim
I thought crying and it was a very
powerful experience that I can't really
put words into so that was my initial
exposure in Islam and what makes it
really interesting is I wouldn't learn
more about it so I remember going for
the first time to make salat and so I
went to an area I lived in Eastern
Brooklyn and I went to an area was
mostly Pakistani and I was the only like
white guy in there everyone else was
older Pakistani men with henna beards
and everything I didn't really fit in I
knew nothing nothing about this a lot
nothing
and I remember I walked in there and
everyone looked at me but they were very
welcoming and very a little bit you know
surprised to see a big white guy walking
in there but they were very helpful so I
walked into the mosque not knowing
anything so I walking with my shoes I
they know don't take your shoes off take
your shoes off and then they had me the
little tie right and I didn't know what
it was all I can remember from my
Catholic days was they give me this
thing of wine to drink for the Catholic
Communion so I thought that's what I was
supposed to do so I took it took to my
mouth to drink and you're like no no no
I'll do that and then explain how to
properly do wudu and I made salat with
these men who I'd never met before and
when the boat was over Brazil ahjumma I
went to all the men came around me and
hugged me and the Imam put his hand on
my shoulder this made some dua that I
didn't understand and once again I felt
this powerful feeling winter I felt
welcomed I felt these people really
loved me it was something that you don't
experience in other cultures it was a
genuine sense of warmth a genuine sense
of brotherly love and that was really it
and after that my entire research
interest changed I became more
interested in these two a political
thought
Eastern philosophy Islamic thought more
Gen
and you know this this was really the
beginning of my path to where I am today
now some people might see the half gain
here what's the plan for some this is an
Afghani pothole that I actually got
while I was living in New York about I
would say eight to ten years ago and for
me I've always been inspired by the
Afghan people's resilience it's a very
difficult place to live it's a very
difficult times they faced on many
different fronts and I just I don't know
I felt like when I first embraced Islam
I was always spent most of my time
around people from Pakistan and people
loved that back from Afghanistan so I
didn't really get to know Turkish people
or Arabs really until I was a little bit
later in my development so my initial
introduction to Islam was for mostly
Pakistanis and this is sort of a
Pakistani common hat as well and I just
like it I like the way it feels it
reminds me of Muslim and it really sort
of prevents me from doing things I
shouldn't I think of the Hat I think of
I'm representing Islam and I need to
manage myself guard against temptation
and fitness tell us professor you
obviously are a person and an
intellectual
someone who's thoroughly did their
research but when you hear some of these
common cliches that people throw around
that Islam oppresses women some people
might be tuning in saying how can he
join a religion it promotes terrorism
and didn't know many of the other
misconceptions people have hot how do
you start off a conversation because
sometimes you've got to move your things
out of the way before you can get you
know to the to the crust of the matter
one of the bits of advice I will give to
people who are in this situation first
you have to understand who is asking you
the question what is their intent if
they genuinely are questioning things
and their interest is their heart is
open if their mind is really wanting to
learn about Islam if they're actually
interested any of real genuine
discussion then I think you should
engage these topics but you need to be
aware some people just want to troll you
they want to harass you in the knees
situations I recommend brothers and
sisters just understand that this
person's just looking at KAUST problem I
don't want to talk about it please and
just get out of situation because
there's no point in debating with
someone who already has their mind up
but most people I believe honestly are
somewhat open and with the way I address
this question
let you know there are in fact many
different miss applications
misunderstandings and miss
interpretations of Islam by all levels
of society not just commonly people
believe in scholars who sometimes issue
very questionable thought was who do
things that seem to be contradictory to
the basic principles of Islam and I
recommend people to read the text
themselves to experience the religion
themselves and to spend time around
Muslims and talk to people that have
knowledge talk to people with good
hearts and good spirits good Souls and I
think this is the best way to go about
doing these how is it now you accept
Islam tell us that moment you took to
show how to define what that means and
and what happens from there you talked
about the experience and love but then
how about was there any backlash from
your family very difficult experience
for the convert especially from the
middle-class white Christian family is
dealing with family friends when I made
much I had that mushy lava roof in
Brooklyn very powerful experience but I
knew it was gonna change a lot of things
not just my inner soul but external
surroundings and my relationships my
parents was a very difficult transition
for them we had many fights for many
years but they finally recognized after
a few years it took years that I wasn't
one of the bad guys I was somebody who
truly embraced this religious for the
reasons that were being added to what
the relation is all about and over time
witnessing might change it behavior
that's changing my actions they started
the tolerant and appreciate that I had
to become a better person to this day
they still don't fully understand or
accept Islam and for many of you your
family and friends will never thankfully
my keys very few of my friends ever had
a problem I didn't have to deal with
that and friends with family members it
was a challenge and it still is but uh
that's okay because toleration is
something that was important and we were
taught that we have to respect our
parents even if it's difficult and it's
it's a fit not for us we have to stay
connected or fair
even if they don't really like our
religion but it's time when I'm
economics I say my relationship with my
family has improved and things are much
much better now than then we're about 10
years ago for sure I don't know how he
is here at the University but usually
when you come to the University in the
States maybe take a philosophy class you
know and usually the agenda is pushing
God out of the equations and you have a
rise of people following the professor
as some even blindly then becomes a
religion of itself and people are kind
of like pushing down on the picture
howdy how would you how do you usually
you know spark up a conversation with
someone who because you said you were
agnostic as borderline almost say yes
what do you like to tell the individual
like this when you're you know trying to
talk with them um well I'm engaging with
my students on these topics I always try
to like juxtapose the Western arguments
with the Islamic arguments my job isn't
to be a propagandist I'm not here to
indoctrinate my students with any
worldview now but that being said many
philosophers argue that it's impossible
escape our subjective situation
philosopher Thomas Nagel talks about the
view from nowhere is it possible because
we are all situated somewhere but I
think it's our job as faculty to try to
separate our personal feelings as best
we can but it doesn't mean we can't use
the logical reasonable arguments that
our religion provides us to make points
to make cases so very often when I do
philosophy or any political science I
will reference Islamic texts I will
reference Quran / lessons scholars of
Islam and I'll ask students to compare
these ideas to some of the Western ideas
and as you said many ways science itself
has become a religion and this is
fascinating because many this is an idea
that even secular Western scholars in
the 1930s and 40s the critical theorist
- front for school and great endure they
they got involved with this this idea of
science becoming its own religion for
that matter so when you when you try to
approach these topics from a
multi-dimensional perspective I think
you have a better chance of reaching out
to everybody so if I'm just using
Islamic sources to prove my point I'm
gonna alienate half of class if I'm just
using secular sources I'm gonna a lead
the other half so you need to try to
find a way to balance and get everybody
involved in a discussion of conversation
and it's a difficult thing to do but I
think the longer you teach the more
experience you have in the classroom the
more you're able to handle this now your
family was from a Christian background
yes Roman Catholic if someone asks you
now are people kind of like you
abandoned Jesus you know what is your
view on Jesus now as a Muslim I think I
have a much better more realistic proper
understanding of Jesus peace and
blessings be upon him now than I did
when I was a Christian like I said I
could never understand the note of the
Trinity this was something that even as
a child I thought was silly how can God
be Jesus in the Holy Spirit at the same
time this just didn't make sense to me
how could God allow himself to be killed
and then rise again this is just seeing
Souls just made no sense and all the
explanations offered to me it's just
we're not satisfactory and quite
honestly I think now as a Muslim the
story of Jesus Christ peace and blessing
be upon and makes it significant about
more sense when you take Jesus and
recognize him as a prophet rather than
as a divine figure rather than as a semi
God or a God it makes more sense and you
start to understand the real message and
teachings of Jesus better and I think
that for me the best thing I can say to
young Muslim just continue to learn
about Jesus Christ through Islamic
sources because in my opinion Christian
sources aren't can be relied upon as
much on this as we know Christian texts
have been changed and translated
retranslated I really think that young
Muslims should look for Islamic sources
for guidance about our Prophet Jesus
because misremembered Jesus is our
prophet as well you have this concept
the theology many people they attack
Islam on some of the things that might
need some further clarification but the
one thing you really don't ever have a
problem with is the the belief system
that worship the creator of the creation
that just goes with the innate
disposition that we were created right
Jesus did it Moses did it Abraham and
God out of his love he sent these
you know to guide humanity but people
problem is he what what from his
teachings are from his life what can you
share with people who you know they
don't know much and the things they
might know are things just false
propaganda I think that once again it
comes down to knowledge it comes down to
finding good sources to read there are
so many books today some very very
negative books about the Prophet
Muhammad peace and blessings be upon
them by non Islamic scholars
I think young Muslim needs to find
somebody that they can trust I need to
find a group of people that can trust
who can guide them to the right texts
thankfully hungry loud my brother's
Brooklyn College were able to point me
towards proper sources and proper
guidance and for people I'd say don't
understand perhaps a piece of lesson to
Department they need to understand how
amazing the man he actually was when you
consider the situation he was born into
horrible horrible situation I mean he
had was an orphan he had to deal with
idolaters very powerful people at Mecca
he was able to overcome Steven Lee
insurmountable odds and be victorious
this is something a lesson that
perseverance lesson of having personal
strengths but I think anybody if any
religious background can grasp and
understand looking at the life of the
Prophet peace and blessings be upon him
looking at his example and not being
blindfolded by propaganda and
misconceptions and it's very dangerous
because these people are very powerful
these Islamophobic actors have enormous
amount of funding and it's very
important to be aware of these tactics
and this is why it's important to have
steadfastness and to find people who you
can trust we can help you to properly
evaluate sources not just secular even
religious sources because to some
religious scholars are not necessarily
as trustworthy as they should
what are your comments is what do you
guys hear at this part of the world you
know nowadays back back home as soon as
there's you know some lunatics some
deranged you know nutcase he does
something right and somehow maybe he
passed by Muslim maybe he had lunch with
a Muslim maybe he's you know Muslim but
he's at the nightclub he's doing he
doing everything opposite as well they
love stigmatizes on the brains in the
equation but just recently I don't you
gotta know if you up with the with the
meat with the news it was the death it
was the bloodiest the deadliest mass
murders that just happened where most I
think speaks to people who help almost
500 injured and the guy didn't yell
alcoholic but god is great so it's not a
terrorist they look in his at his you
know a mental state is this an August a
double standard that people are seeing
here in a car policy what are your
comments on this I think for sure
there's a major double standard here I
think that clearly when a Muslim does
anything it's terrorism even if it is
not and well why not say to a white male
not Muslim does the same thing it's
framed very differently to media but
have a very important message over the
Guardian this when using the term
terrorism it has to be understood as
proper political science context this is
very important because when we start
throwing around terrorists and this goes
from Muslims to claiming that all those
guys have commit an act of terrorism we
have to understand the parameters of
terrorism as understood by most within
the UN definitions which include an
effort to still fear in a civilian
population to violence to get a
political end accomplished this is very
important if somebody commits mass
murder and it does not have a political
evidence it's just a crazy lunatic
literally who's crazy that is not
terrorism and we need to really remember
this because it protects ourselves
because if the definition of terrorism
is to start being used for any single
act of violence it will ultimately used
a gifts Muslims Muslims need to make it
clear that terrorism can not just be
used to describe any old act of violence
it really has to fit within these
parameters of having a specific
political end seeking to change in alter
policy this is something that has to be
otherwise the term lawful as I said it
will be used inappropriately and
stigmatized communities you've been here
in Bosnia for over how long this is
starting my fourth year fourth year many
people back home it's kind of been a
forgotten history the greatest genocide
that happened after World War two can
you kind of fill it people who have no
idea on what happened just in brief you
know summary have been bringing people
up to speed and it's beautiful wonderful
country shortly after the dissolution of
well actually the so all story goes back
to the early nineteen eighties when
marshal tito passed away there's a
period of instability as communism was
on his deathbed and then when the
country started to finally break apart
people sort of immediately embraced
their sectarian religious identities in
a way that my opinion wasn't necessarily
authentic I think this was more about
nationalism with religion is being used
as an excuse and indeed the majority the
power were in the hands of Serbians who
control the weapons were based out of
Belgrade the former capital people's
Latvia then whether the dissolution
happened the Bosniak Muslims are in a
very bad position they had limited
control of land and they had limited
control of weapons and if you look at
the geography of Sarajevo itself it's
situated between two mountains and the
Serbs with their much superior military
force and power and numbers were able to
literally bombard the city for three
consecutive years and through a truly
miracle the Bolsheviks were able to
survive and with limited help from the
West or managed to hold this off long
enough until an agreement could be
reached but some of the atrocities that
happened in this country are absolutely
incomprehensible and we have many
faculty here at this university who have
family members who were killed in this
war and many people today who were still
scarred many people even fought on the
Bosnian Sider at this university of
different levels of the administration
so it's a very very interesting place
for most Americans we never experienced
anything remotely in the universe of
what many of these people have
experienced however this country I think
is trying to move on there's still a lot
of political instability there's still a
lot of dip sectarian differences
between the different constituent groups
political system here needs to be
rethought for sure but at the same time
I do see progress there has been a lot
of investment from Arabs and from people
from the Gulf states to help build some
of these areas which has brought tension
itself as well a new cultural tradition
coming here we have to understand most
the bush the acts of honey Ottoman
historians some Gulf state are Hanbali
types it's a little bit of a clash but
people are I think most Bosnians are
happy to see some level of investments
and at least religious Bosnians I think
see the importance of Brotherhood and
connecting to the other Muslim majority
countries before we wrap up some closing
advice for those struggling because you
know and how they are related to you
former Catholic then agnostic you
couldn't deal with the Trinity trying to
figure out the purpose of life so many
different you know misconceptions about
Islam they're turning into the Deen show
what advice do you give my advice is
life is not short it is long we
ultimately don't know what a loss both
Allah's plan is for us right a lot of my
students ask this question about do we
have fate or do we have free will but it
gets very complicated from Islamic
perspective as you know I always tell
them this regardless of what gods off
the plan for us is we have an obligation
to do the best we can to be the best
people we can only God knows what
actually that plan is but we are
responsible for doing our part to make
this world a better place and the
spreading Islam and a peaceful
intellectual manner not through
dogmatism not through empty slogans but
the legitimate dialogue and textual
based knowledge based on authentic
primary Islamic sources this is the
issue and I ask all of you people who
are struggling with families and friends
were dealing with your conversion remain
steadfast remain strong remember you
will be rewarded for this this is a
fitness the part of the challenge we
face a generation before you suffered
even more greatly than you could ever
imagine so I say that is a difficult
challenge but it's a wonderful challenge
you have been blessed
you've been given the opportunity to
experience a religion that not
everyone's heart is open to we all know
that surah from sort of
the very beginning some people's hearts
are simply closed their minds are sealed
but you were blessed to have the
opportunity to accept and embrace this
beautiful religion thank you thank you
presser Joseph thank you for this
Achilles honor here on the Dean show I
really appreciate it thank you very much
and thank you guys for tuning in more
from Bosnia smiling