Homme de llobregat al-amin a rahman al
rahim alla Chioma team young could go to
a yucca nest arena we grew up in in the
baptist world I was raised in and the
ministry I was in you have armies you
have wealth you have gold you have all
this technology but a little microscopic
bug has shut down the world it's the
minister and while I was ministering I
was also teaching at the Christian
college level you go to the Bible and
you find the way we pray in Islam
worship services had turned into kind of
little rock and roll concerts and
screenings and smoke and lights and
master are you good and you go no
there's no good but with God and
everything I know I get from him
everything I do is what he tells me to
do the end times coming I don't even
know what the date is only God does
how are you doing Richard how are you
I'm dearly loved hamdu isolated
sequestered quarantine with Delilah
for those that don't know so we have our
special guest we were supposed to do a
face to face interview in the studio
with our with our brother Richard Chi
for we're supposed to be in the studio
but due to the circumstances we're going
to do a short interview in sha Allah now
but we still would like to have you in
the studio but we couldn't resist you
have such an incredible story and Shella
can benefit so many people now to start
off with you were actually a for how
many years you were a Christian minister
and also a Christian professor
see I started my Christian ministry in
1972 and I retired in 2016
26 23 2015 whatever that is so about 40
year career plus for the 40 plus years
as a as a minister or all - yes yeah no
no no that's that's the minister and
while I was ministering I was also
teaching at the Christian college level
here in in the Detroit area now you went
from being a professor in Christianity a
minister and then from there you became
an agnostic I did I did
we hid what happened at the end of my
career what career that's kind of an
ugly word but the end of my time
together yeah in serving in the church
and in the youth ministry and things
that I was doing I just started to get
he you know kind of settling down and
then one of our price students one of
the young people that had come up to our
youth group in ministry for a long long
time he acknowledged didn't let
everybody know you was down atheists and
so my response was I gotta fix him you
can't have can't have this young man
being an atheist
and so I called him in contacted him he
was living in Utah and I said Annie what
so I shouldn't seasoning but anyway
what's going on you're saying here you
don't believe in God anymore and he's
starting no no no no and I said well you
got tell me why and he would start well
we had this about the Bible like that
I would say oh no I've got the right
answers so I would reach up on my shelf
grab my theology book about all the
things that the Bible was in the
Arrington perfect in every which way and
you know he you know yeah but and then
you throw some more questions at me oh
okay I'm gonna have to get back to you I
got a I'll have to dig a little deeper
so I didn't dig a little deeper to find
a few more answers get back to him and
you go yeah but still there's more and
I've kept going and he kept doing that
through Bible through the deity of
Christ through the way we worship all
kinds of things and I finally I really
question for him and I ran out of
questions out of answers for me because
it wasn't it was like oh my goodness I
think he's right there's a lot of holes
there's a lot of problems maybe he just
stepped back from and all of a sudden we
were I was struggling and so I was I
call it I was google eyes that's a new
term that I have invented thanks to
Google when I was growing up in College
and Seminary you had the library which
was full of all kinds of Christian
supporting books and all of a sudden I
can go online and I can start
investigating manuscripts I can start
investigating how the Trinity doctrine
started to really come together and all
of a sudden I'm going oh and so I really
kind of uh kind of wandered off into
kind of an agnostic I couldn't I
couldn't say there's no God I couldn't
do that in my heart I was too
experienced and I experienced too many
things in life but I definitely was like
I have no idea who it is what it is or
what's my responsibility so this was one
of your students
yes yeah Wow so you you had been
teaching him for so long
but then he ended up getting you said
Google eyes don't probably also you got
he got information that you know
something and then he was bringing it to
your attention and you didn't have
answers for those questions that he or
things that he was bringing up I had no
answers give us like a couple examples
well even you start to look at the Bible
he was going you know there are sections
that were added later I know
well you what are you talking about and
he would you know talk about that little
section at the end of mark talking about
the story of the woman caught in
adultery and John and I started doing
some management was studying here a
little bit and playing all of those
didn't show up right away and started
investigating you and the manuscripts
themselves and most of them are from the
eighth nineteen century on and prior to
that because we have no idea because
everything kind of changed around a
little bit huh
so that was kind of significant that
there were additions based on the likes
of what whoever was translating it well
some people look over that they say well
that's not a big deal it's about faith
so why was it something important to you
and why should it be important to others
well the concept is that we grew up in
in the baptist world I was raised in and
the ministry I was in is that this book
was the in divinely inspired Word of God
it was God breathed it was he inspired
and so I'm going okay they said well we
got most of us right and I'm gonna well
no no no no no I mean most of a right
which parts do we know we were right and
I was you know the questions kept coming
it's like even though yeah we're so this
is right and we got this in
you get why I found out there's like
5700 manuscripts in in the Christian
world and none of them agree with each
other and all of a sudden I'm going oh
this is this is not good because I I'm
going to give God's the author God would
a person God would have preserved the
message being such an essential message
for mankind yes the Bible is the message
for mankind we're not going to play hide
and seek with it he's gonna give it
preserve it present to us for all
generations and Allah said that wasn't
the truth at all and I was going waving
the white flag going I don't care if
it's 99% right God the omniscient
omnipotent the omnipresent creator of
the universe he's gonna get it 100% and
he's anything less than that just is
like I think there's a problem here yeah
have you ever in your whole life
experience what we're going through
right now with this whole well they
consider a pandemic anything similar
close only in film and by that I mean
even Christian films where we grew up
under the great cloud of fear that the
end times were near and there was gonna
be all kinds of attacks to vien
disasters and but nothing like this this
is this is it's horrible it's acting yet
at the same time it's like I see you
know I really believe that a lost been
with the allah is calling his people and
saying yeah you're fragile you are very
very fragile you have armies you have
wealth gold you have all this technology
but a little microscopic bug has shut
down the world that that is just deep
that's really deep and many of us you
have a little picture there people
should be doing this now coming back to
picture behind you then didn't Jesus do
that he did he did yeah you uh you go to
the Bible and you find the way we pray
in Islam
yeah the prophets prayed that way they
bow they knelt they they faced towards
the religious center of Jerusalem or
wherever at that point but yeah yeah
that's a beautiful picture that's
showing the showing like the most
humbling thing that you can do is just
bring the highest port point a man man
becomes very arrogant you know full of
himself and just humble yourself and
bring it to the ground and Jesus peace
be upon him did I ever have you thinking
when you're reading I think it was
Matthew 26:39 where it says and he went
a little further and he fell on his face
and prayed to God basically when you'd
read that what would you think as a
Christian did you did you ever think
about that
who was he praying to but well yeah yeah
well you know we have this little this
little two-way thing going here in the
Christian world where Jesus is a hundred
percent man a ton percent God and so we
kind of had him doing a little loading
modal switch and when he was doing that
he was obviously it was a man praying to
God but then when he was dying he was
God but he was me and dying I mean this
week of the hypostatic Union which
really gave it a fancy name to mean we
don't know that's all we could come up
with it to to make our story possible
what do you say to people who say that
muhammad peace be upon him he just
copied things from the Bible have you
heard that right oh yeah
most of those people have not sat down
and read the Koran to me I'm what I'm
saying now as a Muslim is the whole I'm
seeing the message of God has never
changed it's it's always been there I
mean even Jesus peace
I recounted the whole thing when they
came to him and said what's the most two
important things we could do and he said
love God with all your heart help your
neighbor and that's a big part of what
we do as Muslims we worship God and you
know we'd I don't know we we just kind
of we kind of a funny little thing with
that with it was a deity thing and
somehow we had to had to make him be God
so he could tie to make God happy so
it's just kind of a kind of a bizarre
story once you start to think about it
as a minister in a Christian theology
professor was it was it the right price
did you did you have a lot of a struggle
like jihad within yourself during that
time you were struggling like two before
you came across the pure monotheism in
Islam and and did you struggle with all
of these things and did you have to put
like a lot of your brain on hold and how
do people get through with it it's I I
equate it to changing furniture in the
living room if I go to my wife right now
and I go I'm gonna move there I want to
change everything in the living room and
I moved the piano here and I'm the couch
over here and she goes I really don't
like it but if I say just leave it for a
while and and see if it's okay and if
you leave something like that all of a
sudden it's gonna be the new norm and
what happened to me was you know I came
into Christianity when I was 12
well there's a there's a guy up on a
large stage behind a very official
looking desk with a book saying thus
saith the Lord
wow you must be and you follow that
through all those years you go off to
college and you you've got guys with
PhDs and you go into seminary you've got
more guys with babies and they go this
is the way it is you just kind of not
that but they must be right I don't know
stand at all but it's a they just kind
of said so many times well we can't
understand this but we though this is
true and that really came to the
forefront even when I was doing the
study because I would look at the
Trinity and I would pull up a doctrine
of the Trinity and I go through all the
theology books in they page after page
explaining explaining everything but
they get to the last line and go but
understand that this doctrine is
inscrutable it's a nice big fancy word
where we can't really understand it and
I read that probably for the first time
and understood it and I'm go well wait a
minute here you don't understand me just
read you just wrote 40 pages about it
Wow what's what's what's wrong with this
picture and so yeah we just can't accept
everything just like you move the
furniture around and after a few months
Kathy who didn't like it in the first
place go whatever I just II just you
just kind of accept it as a new norm
it's kind of you know perception is
reality and where you go it reminds me I
don't know if you ever came across or
met dr. Gerald Dirk's he had a doctorate
in divinity from the Harvard University
he was a good friend of mine may God
Almighty Allah grant him generally
passed away but I've done many programs
with him and I recant a situation where
he was he went through seminary school
at that point when he went into many of
the textual variants and then he went
back to on the pulpit and he couldn't
those verses that he knew like you said
they were taken out they weren't in
there he couldn't do it anymore
he just his conscious was eaten away at
him and then he would see people who
were repeating verses and he was like he
felt like they were deceiving the people
and just he couldn't do it his heart he
couldn't do it and that just reminds me
of what - what you were saying when
things were taken out and put in yeah
yeah yeah I think I was have you ever
heard of dr. Gerald Dirk's did you ever
did you ever heard
I've heard the name and it's on a list
of things of people I need to look up
and do some reading on yeah but I I've
not got to that point yet that's one of
the kind of interesting things when you
when someone comes in does Shahada
I was recipient of many many many books
that I have to read and I'm working my
way through them yeah so we're gonna get
there and learning some things but I was
I was in a lot of youth work my main
emphasis was was speaking to kids and so
you know even going through all those
years I I wasn't really deep into
theology a whole lot I was helping kids
I was helping kids with divorce I was
helping kids find out why they're
incarcerated what's about the drug and
substance abuse or all these things
going on in your life and so I kind of
slid through all those 40 years it's
like you know question this and I did we
don't have the Internet at that point to
do so and we kind of rolled with it and
then all suddenly it goes this is hard
to understand and this atheist student
when you mean that direction and then
once we started rolling downhill it was
like it was gonna be over so they used
to call you the Christian professor I
don't know I don't know they just
usually use call me rich yeah but
technically you were a professor a
professor of Christianity but you you
have you heard of Bart Arum I have
everyone whose books on my shelf oh you
have every one of his books now what's
interesting about your story is that you
went and just didn't stop there like dr.
Gerald Dirk's he ended up also accepting
Islam you ended up becoming agnostic and
that's the same thing that happened with
bar Aaron he's one of the leading Bible
scholars of our day right and he and he
ended up becoming a agnostic but you
went above and beyond and you ended up
saying you can't deny God
so you ended up finding the truth in in
submission to the will of God which
simply means Islam absolutely I I look
at it like actually log fell me and
because I well how this all started was
one day I was out driving here in
Michigan and I was just just I you know
you could hear little older he start to
think wow this slaves could be over
sometime what's the deal and I I was
driving down the road and it closed my
eyes my eyes shouted out a prayer that I
just said God if you're there if you're
you know what I think you were are show
me and so you know there's a nice thief
about when you reach out in a hand
towards Allah he comes with an arm and
yes one and also and then he's running
at you with enough mercy to overcome
everything that you had in this life and
so he tracked me down and very very
grateful for our Christian friends and
neighbors and you know just people who
are agnostic atheists who kind of went
down that same path it's something
really captivating when you did
something really simple for them also
many people are confused about the
Trinity they also have doubts but
they're kind of just you know sliding in
on Sundays and doing the head bob and
this is a professor he must be right but
now they see you they see somebody who
is a forty plus years as a minister a
Christian professor but you weren't
satisfied there and then you found what
you were looking for by just making a
simple prayer and asking God to guide
you yes and he did that he rearranged
half of the universe including a whole
lot of I mean I didn't even know what
Muslim I I mean I live in the Detroit
area but I live out in the suburbs I had
I think I've seen the Muslim in my life
but I sure had never talked one that I
know about but he arranged and brought a
young man nearly 40 miles away into my
neighborhood to work at a retail store
that I had Nina
and I met him and we talked about the
cell phone world that he was selling and
afterwards the conversation went into
Islam and here we are
did you did you at that time also have
many different negative thoughts about
Islam due to the media or whatever was
being perpetuated at that time did you
oh did you have any kind of what kind of
picture that was painted in your mind
about Islam and Muslims at that time we
the church world from where I came
taught to fear them even to the point of
one of the funny things I talked to this
young man in the store I said you know
within about six miles of this place I
can take you to four or five churches
and absolutely believe that the Muslims
have come here to take over America and
that they are stockpiling weapons and
militia and probably in the backyard
somewhere you may even find a silo I
don't know
and at some point there's gonna be some
grand signal and the doctors are coming
out of the hospitals and the nurses
people pulled out of the offices and
there's going to be this great assault
on America and and this guy laughed him
he goes we don't even own a gun and
there's only like less than 1% of
Muslims hold the population of America
anyway and so but there it was fearful
there was some kind of they worshipped
the moon God they they have this thing
called the Koran and they they bow to a
box in in Mecca in the desert all those
things as they are there there that's
great they make your women there you
know the men are harsh and you know
control their women and the women have
to wear this covering and we're all
black and some of them haven't even
caught up to their eyes and they're just
a strange bunch and we really don't you
know when you see them at the airport
you like you hope
like you hope they're not getting on the
plane you're just a lot of yeah yeah
it's
yes perpetrated perpetrated quite a bit
so there was a lot there was a lot of
fear that there was fear then now same
Islam yeah not for me but I mean yeah
the Islamophobia is very very real I
have a friend who was the MSA president
at Michigan State for a number of years
and he talks about how difficult it was
to be a Muslim on a campus like that
yeah lots lots of strong stuff innuendos
ok cool things but when you start going
over some of the basics that's why how
important is it just educating our
neighbors and our friends because just
by someone defining what these words
mean you said allah subhanho wa taala
i mean this is just semitic language
just like Aramaic jesus said Allah you
know and lo in Hebrew when you start
defining words Muslim I mean when when
you know what it actually means one who
surrenders and submits to the one God
Jesus surrendered to God he was a Muslim
when you start breaking these things
down was that captivating you does it
help others when you start to explain
what is Lomb is and what it isn't one of
the one of the biggest things is just
even the term Allah yeah it's just like
what's that well it's the Arabic word
for no no it's it's strange or whatever
but when I think that has helped me
communicate to Christians was if you go
into the Middle East and find a Catholic
or a Protestant they pray to Allah as
well so and then people look at me going
really you know the Catholics in their
mass will go but I pray whatever and
Allah yes I mean it's not like it's not
like a Muslim term but you know ignorant
yeah and you have to make that clear
yeah people know I'm sorry go ahead
I'm sorry go ahead make that clear you
said no I just yeah
I just said we just need to make that it
makes it clear but even with that you
know people don't want to hear with the
donee here yeah but it's amazing the
simplicity you know the belief in one
and only one God worshiping the Creator
not the creation being morally upright
being a good human being doing good
deeds simple message easy to understand
that's exactly what I found when this
young man explained it to me us like it
was in my heart I was like there's
there's gotta be a God and I want to
worship Him and I had already been just
kind of disjointed the way the Christian
worship services had turned into kind of
little rock and roll concerts and
screenings and smoke and lights and yeah
it's just it's very very simple and the
one thing that really helped me was just
to understand that Jesus will ace along
he was Muslim in every we asked him
master are you good and you go no
there's no good but with God everything
I know I get from him everything I do is
what he tells me to do the end times
coming I don't even know what the date
is only God does pull out the teachings
of Christ out of the Bible and you end
up understanding that yeah he was a
prophet yeah and when you say he was a
Muslim if you just take that and you
substitute it and you define and say you
just basically said that he was one who
surrendered to God he submitted his will
to God's will that's what a Muslim
exactly he did this exactly yeah he did
that indeed yeah when you were very very
much when you are a Christian professor
at that time did you believe that the
Gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John
were actually written by Matthew Mark
Luke and John did you go absolutely
because it yeah because that I had you
know I had
I obtained the Bible and I opened up
I've got to it's got the Nima mark on it
must be mark I mean it's kind of like
whatever's here you accept it and
Matthews name was on the front of this
welcome mark and Luke's and John's you
assumed they were Matthew in the mark
and Luke in the John that you read about
in the in the narratives of of the
Companions of Christ not knowing you
said there back in then nobody had a
last name and who knows what Matthew
wrote that and then I started reading
and understanding that historic scholars
even evangelicals you know you kind of
look at that you go it's kind of
disputed we don't know who wrote those
things so these are it's true to say I
mean Bar carom talks about it and other
biblical scholars that these are
anonymous books we don't know who's
writing these books no but most people
believe I mean 99% of our Christian
friends and neighbors they believe that
these are books from Matthew Mark Luke
and John was that a quite a surprise was
that quite a surprise to you when you
found out how what was your reaction
when you found out that these aren't
actually written by the peoples whose
names are on the chapters well you know
the whole concept was that we were
believing what's he had written based on
these guys were first skin you know
witnesses they saw this and they wrote
it and oh you know so there's
discrepancies and variances and I think
the greatest I think the biggest
surprise to me was understanding that
around the Easter story that Matthew
Mark and Luke the synoptic Gospels they
got the Palm Sunday story right you know
Jesus lays long on the donkey into
Jerusalem all branches here by shouting
blessed is he who comes in the award
they got that right well when it came
down to the crucifixion resurrection
story officer there's all kinds of
discrepancies
and say oh how did that happen and then
I going back to again God's supposed to
have superintended and inspired and read
this thing into existence and it's like
what do you say stutter what happened
yeah and all sudden that whole
crucifixion resurrection story all
started a little shaky huh I mean this
this is this is something that obviously
you if you didn't know it's not I mean
it's not your fault but when it is our
it is our duty to share these these are
academics who tell us this
so somebody now if it comes to you I
mean you should research it and then you
should ask like you or questions like
hold on everything that I've been told
so far and then already things don't
make sense and already I just been doing
this maybe it started at the time I
start doing this and start really doing
what you did asking God for guidance and
just stop like sliding in on Sundays and
really do your homework yeah yeah it's
I've talked to a number of Christians
since I made Shahada your almost two
years ago now and it's kind of like I
don't care what you say I don't care
what the facts are you know my mother
told me this gospel story and by golly
I'm gonna follow it all the way through
my life regardless I can't turn my back
on that kind of a family link that's
very very difficult for people huh
and yet I said I said how nice to I read
The Crow and listen back to those
question but I read the Koran and I see
that thread of the message of God from
Adam to Abraham Moses David saw all the
way through to Muhammad and all of a
sudden it's just like I'm reading the
Quran and it's like somebody came in
took a Bible and said oh this is really
kind of messed up here let's let's clean
it up let's put it in order let's make
the truthful things truthful let's leave
out the crazy things and that's it just
comes that way and it's so
funny thing it was when you were growing
up as a kid every pastor I knew and even
when I would speak it was often here's
the scripture now let me tell you what
it means it was it was very unclear that
the Bible is very hard to read it is not
a you know a bedtime it's it's scholars
for years and decades and centuries and
still have while we have thirty thousand
different denominations of viewpoints on
that same book and so they would say
yeah this is this is what it means and I
finally got to a point where I go why
didn't God see what he meant and if he
didn't say what he meant who are you to
tell me what he meant and I pick up the
Koran and I read it bismillah r-rahman
and I mean in the name of Allah was
merciful it just it just rolls out in it
gives me goosebumps even as I can you
recite some of the opening chapter of
al-fatiha for us like you were just
doing it sounded so Buchan you just go
ahead no I'm working at my Arabic it's a
little rugged yeah this Rahman that I he
hummed it over there I mean a rahman al
rahim allen key or machine Yakubu to
iyyaka nastaa'een a tina Surratt was to
keep surrounded Athena and on to L am
going to be alayhim wala tall see that's
like you have a living language you have
people who now want to go back to what
God's almighty allows words where the
crater you just recited those that's the
opening chapter of the verbatim word of
God Almighty the Quran and you are
reciting the original not what someone
yes Tran
lated they can make a mistake here
they're never it's the right direct
source and you can go back and you can
verify and check it up and I'm sure you
did that because you put a lot on the
line you know - yeah well that was one
of the key things it was interesting one
of the days I went in to speak to this
young man at this retail store and one
day his friend was there and he started
explaining about the authenticity of the
Koran it's like we have it as it was
given word for word for word no changes
fourteen hundred years I was like no
because they you know I'm used to
Christianity coming out with a new
version every other year and as they
know that's the same it's never changed
and that was significant because then
that said to me that author is
consistent and compared to what I have
experienced in in the Bible where it was
like yeah we got most of it right that's
you know that's horseshoes stuff they
said no this is exactly what Allah said
and we have it in and we have it perfect
and so much so that even I think about a
month ago before all the the quarantine
thing started I was at the message and
somebody other than the man was leading
one of the salons and the prayers and
they must you know I'm learning here big
but I don't know but what they got there
and he must have made a slight slip
because one of the elders who was
standing in line with me I spoke up and
corrected him - yeah get this right and
and then the guy who was lead he goes
yes it he explained it and I mean you're
cited it correctly then it's like it's
like everybody knows that you can't
change it that's that's one of the
miracles now you it's authentic it's not
different versions of the Quran and
things added taken out if one thing is
taking out one contradiction it can't be
from God it can't be from Allah the
creator of the heavens into earth how
was your relationship with Jesus now II
saw a Salaam I got a letter from a
friend who
going out can you turn your back on
Jesus lice alone a guy I didn't it makes
it makes sense now of what he did what
he was and his purpose too and his
message was was given and he gonna dig
through there a little bit you find the
authentic message even even when he told
people how to pray he imagined you he
said put this away to pray and he he
starts going our Father in Heaven but
the word father really is the word for
creator Wow
so he was really praying you're praying
and you kind of match up his prayer with
fatiha and you get pretty close he was
expressing you know worship to God
confession of sins direct our straight
path and do you be power and glory
forever amen and so that's my
relationship is now like he just makes
sense it makes sense well one of the
things I did during my D converting days
I used to watch a lot of atheistic shows
and there's a lot of them on they have
make fun of Christians like crazy and
one of the things that they said I could
never get out of my mind was you know
your story is so crazy because you're
saying that God had to send himself to
die to make sacrifice to pay for the
price of the laws that he controls and
that whole story is like and even though
in fact that well why guy and they've
shed blood to say I forgive you which is
which is so caught you know
contradictory to everything that he you
know I mean he would just say I forgive
you what what's wrong with that instead
of having to go through all of this so
yeah the relationship with Jesus is as
it should be as a respective
and understanding his place even in the
even in the returned at the end very
highly honoured but not worshiped and he
never accepted worship he never asked to
be worshipped one of the things that
even now that just Prince's me is when I
hear people they'll start out their
prayer dear Jesus oh oh no it's like you
know that's the word shirk just kinda
just kind of jumps out at me no no don't
put somebody else in this position yeah
yeah that's amazing
you made the contrast between the Lord's
Prayer and then the opening chapter of
the Quran and both of them are directing
worship to one and only one God the
creator of the heavens on earth and
every big ol law and the language you
just spoke Aloha I know now you also
mentioned that instead of saying our
Father who art in heaven is actually our
Creator who are who are in heaven that's
what he actually probably properly be
translated as yes that's one of the you
know when you study the Greek Greek is
it's just full of meaning and so whoever
was translating it back in whenever
looking at that Greek term he would look
at the Greek sermons goes well that's
about God so I want to make him the
father so that's just a translational
you know decision yeah but then you go
back and you look up the book and look
up the word and it's like it's like oh
no no it's it's obviously to the Creator
it's a bigger broader word rather than
the Morris the smaller word it's like
even the Christmas story one of the
things we used to say all the time was
well we know that Jesus was God because
the Three Magi from the east they came
and they bowed down in the words of Jim
and I said I used to look at that yeah
that muster and he gave him gold
frankincense and myrrh which is all kind
of prophetic about his life but then you
go look up the the original language and
that word worship is not worship at all
in the Greek term it's for kiss they bow
down and kiss the baby
that's what that's what people do when
do babies you can't talk today because
of the virus but when you see a new baby
about what to kiss a baby and because
and the baby is in a manger so they had
to bail down
they weren't worshipping I just I just
came to kiss the baby and honor him as
the prophet of God it's just amazing how
there's a little translational
idiosyncrasies kind of came to the
forefront based on who you were you know
I mean Constantine made sure that there
was a Trinity verse even though it was
super super added and all the Bible
still say it was added but they still
put it in is that John what is that John
one 5:7 for there are three that bear
record in heaven the father to son and
is that the one now and I was taken out
yeah that was an and it was yeah it's
just it just it's just amazing you start
to look at one of those and it's just
like this big domino thing it just like
that wasn't this one that one that one
yeah somebody invented a even even the
hope the deal of putting the pan and
together on the scripture it was a
committee and they all sat around the
table and yeah I like this book I don't
like that book I want this book in and
there is I haven't looked it up I was
told that there was a diary of kind of
like the minutes of that meetings yeah
of when when the when that when yes and
describes all the confusion and you know
it's very very human it wasn't a divine
setting yeah it was a committee you know
what yeah you know what committees in
yeah yeah committees in so I've also
heard that dr. Gerald Dirk's the the
doctor and divinity he ministered former
minister that I had in a program he told
me also that when he researched this
translation of son son when they say son
of God when you go deeper into the
language this should have been
translated
servant of God I looked at that but I
yeah when people say he was the son of
God but the scripture records and what's
that first mm-hmm so that we might
become sons of God I mean it says as
believers he uses that same analogy yeah
but when Jesus lays along just himself
81 times he call himself a son of man
son of man 81 times huh 81 what is that
telling us what why did he emphasized
that why he was a servant he was the
servant of Allah to communicate that
love and the message of Allah to mankind
so if I'm repeating that 81 times over
and over I'm the son of man son of man
son of man he's trying to in fat eclis
push a point that he's not that he's
what yeah I mean they came to him and
he's a good master what must we do to be
saved whatever and he'd go
don't call me good there's no there's no
one good but but what God he kept he
kept deflecting all the way through he
gives you know this is who I is what I
say everything I do is it's what God
tells me yeah I am the servant how did
you how did you confirm that because the
theology of Islam Islam meaning
submission to the Creator not the
creation submitting your will to the one
God and doing what he wants you to do on
his terms not your desires that's pretty
straightforward easy to understand Noah
brought it taught it Moses brought that
message taught that message Jesus peace
be upon him as you confirmed and so many
now that resonates with the heart mind
body and soul he brought that same
message he taught it and then we say the
last and final messenger sent to mankind
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon them all
he was the seal of the prophets how did
you confirm that he was indeed because
so many people will stop there and say
yeah I believe just one only one God and
they'll go away from the church and
everything but now there's a final
messenger what convinced you that
was indeed a messenger from Allah the
Creator the message does not need
improved it does not need explained it
doesn't change
he changed the message is clear
God's message started back with Adam
because now it's it's it's on earth it's
clear and it's not changing and there's
there's no need for another other
messenger that makes sense
straightforward simple yeah what what
what what advice I can go on but I want
to save some more phone God willing
inshallah God willing we meet in person
I'm really having it I'm having a great
time what advice would you give for
others
people like bar Aaron he stopped he
still I believe agnostic he was a devout
Christian he's one of the leading Bible
scholars you went above and beyond that
and you turned to the truth to the way
of life of Jesus Moses Abraham
submission to the will of God Almighty
Islam what advice will you have people
who are stuck they become agnostic
they're also struggling with the Trinity
there's a lot of misconceptions about
Islam it's the boogeyman coming to get
you and all the other fear-mongering
what advice do you give for all of them
you need to pray and ask God to do to
guide you I can't put my finger on the
exact wording but it's in Sura 6 125
when Allah guides you to do Islam he
opens your heart and all of a sudden it
just is like yes this is right and if
you you ask he'll come running after you
that's the effect beautiful if I keep it
simple pray to the Creator alone without
any intermediaries to the one god that
jesus prayed to and all the other
prophets ask him for guidance and surely
if you take one step towards him he'll
takes ten towards you you come to him
walking he'll come to you running
because he's the most merciful the most
loving the most kind and he wants to
guide you just don't go to others or and
through anyone go direct
to him beautiful yes absolutely
absolutely yeah well the thing that
really happened in my life was one day I
was at that retail store and this young
man said it must have been time for us
or one of the prayers he goes up I'm
gonna pray you won't you come in the
back you can pray with me just eat a set
and watch and I watched him go through
the thing but before he did that he gave
me a copy in English so I could follow
what he was saying in Arabic and after
he was done wow that was really kind of
neat other as a beautiful expression of
I don't know exactly what you said
except what I'm reading here in front of
me in English he says well you can pray
that if you go home and at some point in
time you want to you know just get your
compass out and face towards Mecca and
and and you can pray that / - no okay
now I have to do that sometimes I said
but the first thing I'm doing to read
the entire Quran I got to make sure this
whole thing's legit and he goes no no no
okay it's kind of long we go ahead and
so I came home toss the the paper that
he gave me probably on the table
somewhere but in this very room I'm in
now which has always been kind of my
office area one day I went you know I
gotta try this
and so I grabbed I grabbed the paper and
I got like pompous out like basis this
direction towards towards the Northeast
and I started reading just in English
and I went in the name of Allah and God
opened my heart I began to weep for over
a half an hour the whole concept was
like i I've met God it was a and I I
think I finished the prayer sometimes an
hour later but then the next day I got
the paper up and you know let's do it
again now I know the emotions I can
control it in the name of Allah and
again just the love just poured into my
heart and that continued for quite some
time and I eventually
I went and got hold of that young man
into the retail store and said I'm
coming over I got to see you and I walk
in the store and he goes hey how you
doing and I don't say anything to him I
just walk up to him and going I am
Muslim I'm going he looked at me like
what do you mean I am Muslim and so he
calls his mom going ridges in the store
we've been talking to him you've been
praying for him now he says he's puzzled
what do I do
and his mom goes call him and I must
marry and ashada
and we did that but it's interesting
that all that all happened during
Ramadan a whole thing of me praying and
everything coming to a head in Ramadan
2018 that happened in Ramadan that
happened yes but yeah that's uh wow
that's amazing you did while you remind
it always reminds me I put in the Gospel
of John 17:3 because as Muslims we
believe there is some of the Word of God
in the Bible obviously some of the words
of the prophets because there's words of
historians and they're just anonymous
books we don't know who's writing these
books but when we contrast some
statements in there we can say like we
can see like I see the Shahada right
there it says where Jesus is saying that
allegedly this is life eternal that they
may know you the only true God at shadow
and la la la la and I testified that
that Muhammad is the messenger at that
time there's I bear witness that you are
the only true God and Jesus whom you
have sent
so you have the affirmation that gee
that there is only one true God same
thing with the Shahada right first you
you acknowledge that there's only one
God and only one God worthy of worship
and then you proclaim that the messenger
at that time who was Jesus he was sent
so he's the messenger after you
confirmed the oneness of God and nothing
being worthy of worship except God and
then we have that at that time and then
you have it now at this time
Muhammad being the final messenger and
then it's absolutely it just it's just
that chronological order it just really
makes a lot of sense and puts a lot of
people at ease
it takes them from
eugen too straightforward simplicity
this is it truth in that same book in
John Jesus peace be upon him was saying
you know I'm gonna go and I'm gonna send
you another I'm gonna send you he uses
the word comforter yes and and and the
Christians think that Bill okay here
comes the Holy Spirit third person of
the Trinity except when you look at a
little closer and understanding that his
Parakletos which is means I'm gonna send
you another of the same kind he's not
sending us spirit he's sending another
messenger and you know that's just it
she yeah when you dust every go it's
pretty clear yeah you a mean this is a
pronoun he he will guide you into all
truth he it's like it's pretty
straightforward and and and then the
Holy Spirit was he was there at that
time according to Christians so this is
someone who's coming yeah in the Fiesta
right yeah yeah I mean the whole concept
if the Trinity you Father Son Holy
Spirit they're all unlike present
everywhere there they're there on earth
and you know what I mean he's coming
oh no Muhammad's coming another
messenger of the same kind and he will
guide you into all truth and I'm still
blown away i mean i i'm you know i'm
reading quran and but all the the
teachings of the prophet muhammad peace
be upon him is just the hadith i I went
to the Amman and I was like where do I
find the book with a decent it and he
just starts laughing at me he goes it's
not in a book it's thousands of books
yeah so I said okay you tell me what I
need to know and I'll take your word for
it but but they're beautiful things of
that whole concept of of him coming as
we seek him he comes running after us
great comfort and great understanding
well how is your feeling your experience
the first
you made such done when you make
prostration like in that picture that is
the best part of Islam to me I have some
bad knees that though really work as
good as I should but I have a little
stool and because they tell me you know
you're gonna sit in the back and you
don't have to sit you I'm going no no no
no I'm gonna I'm waited too long for
this little handle and it just helps me
get up and down so I can prostrate and
that what it is to me is like all the
burdens all the worries of this world I
just let him roll off and I just humble
myself under the presence and power of
Allah and save the years 30 years I
humble myself to what you want for me
and that's a credible peace incredible
contentment and I've never been a piece
like this sort of my life and you do
that five times a day and takes care of
a lot of worries and anxieties yeah wow
this is amazing we are so we're gonna
inshallah God willing we get through
this pandemic out and then we can have
you come in and we can talk some more I
really enjoy talking with you it was
been wonderful to talk to you I feel bad
or not been shy cago having some pizza
eats in Chicago you take care of
yourself you take care of yourself and
inshallah we'll be in touch and we get
through this and we can we can we can
see each other in person and continue
our amazing discussion we'll do that and
do that may Allah continue to protect
you preserve you and use you as a source
of light and guidance for for many means
is that gonna hurt to you I mean well
yeah thank you so much
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