come and see what everyone's talking
[Music]
about there's only one and Jesus his
messenger alhamdulillah Alum peace be
with you you are watching the dean show
and we are here trying to help you
develop a better understanding about
Islam which is the fastest growing way
of life in the world today yet most
misunderstood but after people dig a
little bit and they start to join us
here weekly on The Dean show they get
inspired they get happy and many even
accept this wonderful way of life that
was lived by all the messengers of God
because they all brought and taught the
same message to acquire peace by
submitting your will to the owner of
Peace the one God and today the crucial
question many people start to ask when
we provide all the rational logical
evidence that Jesus peace be upon him
was a mighty messenger and in no way was
he Divine with with God in no way did he
call people to worship Him people will
ask well then what was he a liar a
lunatic or was he Lord he had to be one
of them well we're going to be
addressing this very important question
when we come back we'll be answering
with Dr Gerald Dirks was a former
Christian preacher teacher Deacon who
finished from the prestigious Harvard
University with the Divinity degree
we'll be right back with more here on
the dean show
[Music]
there's only one andam is his
[Music]
messenger
Allah there's only one God and Jesus
[Music]
Hiser I don't know why I did that maybe
maybe it's just to break the ice peace
be with you asalam alaykum and peace
upon you brother thank you for joining
us here again on the dean show my
pleasure we are going to get straight
into the topic cuz time is short and we
want to for those who want to know a
little bit more about you they can go to
theed show.com you have your own private
section we've done several shows with
you in the past you have your biography
there so people can read and learn about
who you were what you've done but today
the crucial question is many people are
asking when we provide all the evidence
from the Bible from the Quran the
verbatim word of God that Jesus and no
muslim is a Muslim unless he believes in
Jesus he was indeed a mighty messengers
of God who called people to the same
message worship the Creator not his
creation then people ask well then what
was he was he a liar was he a lunatic
crazy if not then he had to be Lord what
do we have to say well you left off the
fourth choice which is none of the above
none of the above none of the above and
as Muslims that's certainly our answer
he wasn't a liar he wasn't a lunatic and
no he wasn't our Lord if by any stretch
of the imagination you mean to imply
divinity
how how a master teacher couldn't Lord
mean that also uh well they're not
implying that but can a lord be like you
know like you have like today you know
have Lords judges are called Lords how
is it according to the Bible yeah
whether whether it's with a capital l or
lowercase L yeah in terms of a master or
a teacher certainly uh we Muslims would
have no objection no objection Jesus
being referred to that way but as a
Divine Son of God not at all no that
that's where we would draw the line so
what do we do now and um
well um you know I think we we uh point
out that we certainly respect Jesus we
accept him as one of the messengers of
God bringing Revelation from God to us
but we do not accept him as as being uh
God or being Divine uh himself now some
people will go and look at the Bible now
I want to make a note correct me you're
our teacher here you're a Bible scholar
you know this book quite well very well
you spent years and years and years and
you got a master's Divinity in it we as
Muslims once have consciously chosen to
submit to the one God we believe that
there is part of uh some of God's word
in the Bible but there's also the word
of prophets historians and people we
don't even know who are writing is that
true right I mean uh you know many of
the books of the Bible were were
anonymously written as far as we know um
and sure we we believe that there's
probably a lot of divine revelation be
found in the Bible yeah uh but there's
probably also some other things as well
that that we can attribute to God
correct okay but now to entertain even
some of these verses that people will
bring because I think that in any court
of law if you can't produce the witness
the case is thrown out but we're still
entertaining this so some people will
say you know what and we've done a show
on this in the past they can go to the
Deans show.com it's called is Jesus God
and you clearly you've shown through
history the early Christian sex and this
was another myth that many people try to
say no all the Christians at that time
believed it this is also a myth
absolutely you know we we know there
were Jewish Christian groups uh that
flourished including uh the Church of
Jerusalem under James um the righteous
um these were Jewish Christian groups
they denied the Divinity of Jesus uh the
ebionites would be another one the
nazarenes not to be confused with the
modern denomination of the same name the
elites uh you know these were groups
that basically
denied uh the Divinity of Jesus now in
the past show the one I mentioned is
Jesus God we went over some of the
common arguments or verses people will
use and you basically you explain them
in their context and show that no the
the these are more like kind of like the
was it the gorot gorot test gorot test
where it's nothing explicit it's
something that you can deduce whatever
you want to deduce yeah you you project
on to it your own from your own self
yeah but now there's a few that we
didn't cover so one will mention like
let's say that you know they took up
stones in the Bible to Stone him because
he was claiming he was God what do you
have to say about this well let's look
at the actual passage you know and and
let's look at it in context and what
you're referring to is from the 10th
chapter of John yeah um the Jews took up
Stones against uh took up stones again
to Stone him this is U John 10:
31-36 Jesus replied I have shown you
many good works from the father for
which of these are you going to Stone me
the Jews answered it is not for a good
work that we are going to Stone you but
for blasphemy because you though only a
human being are making yourself God
Jesus answered is it not written in your
law I said you are Gods if those to whom
the words of God came were called gods
and the scripture cannot be un olded can
you say that the one whom the fathers
has sanctified and sent into the world
as blaspheming because I said I am God's
son that's John 10:
31-36 now if if you're going to take
that passage as a statement that Jesus
is claiming Divinity you're making a
number of assumptions yes and and let's
just delineate what those assumptions
are first of all you're assuming that
John or whoever wrote the Gospel of John
is recording the passage accurately
that's the first assumption secondly
you're assuming that Jesus actually said
this that's the second assumption and in
fact there are some reasons to doubt
that Jesus actually said this so for
example when he says in this quotation I
said you are
Gods he's quoting
here
from the Old Testament but what's
fascinating is he's quoting from the
Greek septu aent yes he's not quoting
from the Hebrew mastic text he's quoting
from the
Greek because the words are identical to
the Greek septu not to the
Hebrew now why would Jesus peace be upon
him in Palestine in the first century be
quoting from the Greek Old Testament
instead of from the
Hebrew I mean this raises real question
questions yeah
secondly according to the statement as
we have it Jesus answered is it not
written in your law I said you are Gods
well that reference to your law the
Torah but the Torah is Genesis Exodus
Leviticus Numbers and Deuteronomy just
the first five books just just the first
five that's the Torah yeah and then the
second division of Hebrew scriptures the
neim and the third division is the k
them this quotation actually comes from
the 82nd chapter of Psalms verse 6-7
that's not part of the Torah that's part
of the
cavine now from all accounts Jesus was a
very
learned
scholar of uh Hebrew scripture yes and
for him to make a claim that something's
coming from the Torah when in fact it's
coming from Psalms is a little hard to
understand how that sort of mistake
could be made so again that's the second
reason we might well question whether
Jesus actually even said these
words but the second thing we need to
consider Al together is does the
statement mean Jesus is
god well let's look at what he said is
it not written in your law I said you
are Gods if those to whom the words of
God came were called gods and the
scripture cannot be an all can you say
that the one whom the father has
Sanctified and sent into the world is
blaspheming because I said I am God's
son he's contrasting I am God's son with
you are called
Gods well if you're saying the latter
means Divinity God's son then so does
the former in other words everybody's
God yeah so I think we have to look at
the context of this context of what
Jesus is actually saying certainly from
my reading of it there's no state
statement of uh Divinity being claimed
and many others not just yours many
others would also line up in conjunction
with what your yeah again as you were
saying before when when we start looking
at some of this stuff it's like looking
at a rosha king plot people are going to
project onto it uh from them their own
selves what their desire is wanting sure
what they want to see see okay we're
going to take a break and we'll be right
back with more with Dr Gerald dks here
on the dean show no speech is better
than to do da to call people to Allah
and to do the work no speech is better
no nothing is better than that is it
true that if one person on the Allah
giving you the ability to guide someone
with Allah's permission the Creator's
permission that is better than
everything in this world better than the
whole world and everything that's in it
in in another narration it's better than
the best of wealth but if we really felt
that Eddie Would we not be out giving da
and this is something that we encourage
all the msas all the da organizations
the mids to get this we want to print
more give these to the non-muslims for
free for free for free we want our
brothers in humanity to become our
brothers
in not afraid to stand
alone I am not afraid to stand alone if
Li by I am not afraid to stand
alone I am not afraid to stand alone if
Li by I am not afraid to stand
alone I am not afraid to stand
Al I am stand
alone back here on the dean show with Dr
Gerald Dirks and we're answering the
question Jesus peace be upon him who no
muslim is a Muslim unless he believes in
Jesus we believe in the Miracles that he
did that he gave life to the Dead with
God permission that he healed the sick
that he was indeed a mighty messenger of
God but nowhere in the Bible or any
Scripture did Jesus ever claim that he
was divine that he was a literal Son of
God and you also in many of other shows
proved historically that many of the
Christian sects at that time there was
an adoptionist theory he was subordinate
to God so the evidence is there that
proves that they can go to the Deans
show.com and look under Dr Gerald uh
section is Jesus gu amongst other topics
that we did now continuing on there are
also prophecies that people tried to
link from the Old Testament and the one
we want to cover is something in Isaiah
and they'll try to link it back to the
New Testament and say look look look
look here the prophecy came fulfilled
and he's
God do you have a specific prophecy in
mind the one in Isaiah talking about the
kingdom it'll be on his shoulder and
okay yeah uh this is the ninth chapter
of Isaiah verse 6 for a child has been
born for us a son given to us Authority
rests upon his shoulders and he is named
wonderful counselor Mighty God
Everlasting father Prince of Peace
that's Isaiah 9 ver that's one that's
the one okay and and people want to say
well this is Jesus and they say look at
that Mighty God well look at the next
phrase Everlasting
father Everlasting father yeah now wait
a minute you can't pick and choose here
in this verse it's not a buffet now no
you take everything that's there
wonderful counselor Mighty God
Everlasting father so we talking about
the one God well you know unless somehow
trinitarians are going to want to claim
that Jesus is the father and not the
son then you can't really make this
piece of scripture apply to Jesus and
this is in in our past show you said
something about this being a heretical
statement saying that Jesus was the
father
or something in that text uh where where
to believe that Jesus is God that he's
actually God and giving and not separate
in a trinity if you oh oh oh the the
Jesus Is God period period yes without
without recognizing that Jesus is also
human yes yeah that that's officially
heresy and additional Christianity
traditional Christianity yeah yeah yeah
there were three basic positions on the
nature of Jesus
um that were fought about theologically
the first few centuries one was Jesus's
God period yeah the other is Jesus is
both God and man
simultaneously that's basically the
official position of traditional
Christianity and the third um position
is Jesus's man although a man who was
selected as a recipient of God's
revelation and stood in a special
relationship to God yeah so how do you
close off this now this is this is this
argument is the one you just covered in
Isaiah this is talking about if you look
at and you add those extra words at the
end this is not talking about Jesus well
I'm I'm not adding extra words this is
from the verse yeah yeah Everlasting
father he is named Everlasting father so
this cancels this out now well it
certainly cancels out any trinitarian
possibility if you're saying uh that
Jesus is the father okay I mean because
the trinitarian concept is he's the son
this is easy to see yeah that's a
blatant contradiction again we covered
this before about I am another one again
now that's brought up that before
Abraham was I am what do you got to say
about this well again let's let's look
at the actual verse yeah Jesus said to
them very truly I tell you before
Abraham was I am so they picked up
stones to throw at him but Jesus HD
himself and went out of the temple John
8:58 now number of assumptions that are
being made and we need to hiire
highlight what those assumptions are by
those who are saying this somehow shows
that Jesus is
God an assumption that some Christians
are making here anyway is that when this
verse says I
am before Abraham was I am it's
referring back to Exodus
3:14 God said to Moses I am who I am
yeah and he further said thus shall you
say to the Israelites I am has sent me
to you well again we're assuming that
that goes back there we don't know that
that's an assumption you know the I am
in Exodus is in
Hebrew the I am in John is
Greek we do not know that a literal
translation was made from what Jesus
would have spoken which was
Aramaic to the
Greek plus you know there are a lot of
Bible Scholars who say you know the I am
translation in Exodus is not quite
accurate mhm you know it sort of gets
the gist but uh it might be more
accurate to say um something on the
order of
um I
um bring into being or something on that
order there's about three or four
different technical
variations of how that phrase could be
translated and again this is nothing
explicit this is nothing straightforward
God doesn't beat around the bush and
have you like you know try to figure it
out you know give you like hints here
and there no no no and and and you know
some people would argue well look if if
Jesus was before Abraham what else could
he be yeah besides God but again you're
making assumptions and one of the
assumptions that you're making is this
there is no such thing as the
pre-existence of souls yeah and in point
of fact you know there are many Muslims
who believe that there was pre-existence
of souls for For All Mankind yeah uh and
they often refer to a verse from the
Quran when your lord brings Offspring
from out of the loins of the children of
Adam he makes them first bear witness
about themselves by asking them am I not
your lord Quran 7: 172 so pre-existence
of souls yeah is how that verse is being
read by many people and we have a
following Hadith Aisha narrated The
Prophet Muhammad said Souls before they
became United with bodies were like
assembled armies and afterwards they
were dispersed and sent into the bodies
of mankind yeah that's from the mishkat
and from the musnad of ibben hanbul we
have another Hadith which perhaps we can
get to in a moment uh tell us before you
get to that now we we have a no go ahead
finish this we have a few more minutes
okay uh Annis bin Malik said that the
prophet said it will be said to a man
from the people of the fire on the day
of Resurrection
if you owned all that is on the earth
will you pay it as Ransom he will reply
yes God will say I ordered you with what
is less than that when you were still in
Adam's
loins that is associate none with
me and Abu Herrera narrated that the
prophet said when God created Adam he
wiped items back and every person that
he will create from him until the day of
Resurrection fell out from his back so
we have this pre-existence of souls yeah
so
for Jesus to
say before Abraham was I
am you know could well be pre-existence
of souls absolutely and again God
Almighty is not the author of confusion
he's not trying to confuse it when God
Almighty says worship me alone right he
would have said Trinity he would have
said crucifixion I'm dying but none of
this is there it's clear worship the one
God the same God that Jesus worshiped
Moses Abraham and the last and final
messenger pro peace be upon him him
alone and not his creation that's always
been the same message yes tell us now a
few more points before we cut to a break
you know we covered these in in the
other show and people can see it the
topic is Jesus God you covered it but
some people uh just briefly touch upon
this the people that didn't see this and
maybe they might not get a chance to go
to the website for beginning was the
word the word was the god no no no
that's John 1:1 they mentioned this this
is a big one for beginning was the word
the word was by God the god became
flesh in the beginning was the word yes
and the Word was with God and the God
and the Word was with God yes but not
the Word was God no the word was with
with God yes it just goes back to what
you were just saying wasn't
it and and this is seems like Duality
not Trinity yeah at this point I mean if
you if you're going to take the word or
the logos yeah as being a
Divine um first of all you have to deal
with that with
statement uh but yeah we still haven't
gotten to the the Holy Spirit yeah of
trinitarian Christianity yeah and and
also course Christianity didn't get to
the Holy Spirit until well after the
Council of nah yeah and 3:25 Council of
NAA basically talked about the nature of
Jesus didn't formulate much of anything
about the uh Holy Spirit and we're going
to take a break and we'll be right back
with more with Dr jald Dirks here on the
dean
show coming to the truth requires two
things it requires deep thinking that
you've already done but it requires
another step and that's courage if you
have the truth but you don't have
courage you won't stand up for the truth
and that's as good as standing up for
falsehood I I would say this thing that
you just told me it's not in the
scripture and they would say a marginal
note added by a scribe yeah okay we know
that and I'd be thinking if you know
this is not the Bible why are you
preaching it as if it's gospel
truth I started out actually uh in high
school I was a born again Christian uh I
accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior as
we used to say and I I became very
committed as an Evangelical Christian
and I went off to Moody Bible Institute
for college which is a a fundamentalist
Bible College after that I went to
Wheaton College which is a liberal arts
college it's Billy Grahams Alma Moder
it's an Evangelical school so I had very
solid Evangelical Christian commitments
and uh eventually uh I got a seminary
degree and I was a pastor of a Baptist
Church for for a year um but gradually
for a large number of reasons I started
to question some of the assumptions that
I had about the faith uh for a long time
I thought that the Bible was inspired
and inerrant that there were no mistakes
in the Bible but as I engaged in
historical research on the Bible as I
was getting my PhD in New Testament
studies at Princeton Theological
Seminary I started finding mistakes in
the Bible and uh this this cut away at
my assumptions that the Bible was
inherent and then I started questioning
other parts of my faith is Jesus really
Divine uh is there really a
back here on the dean show with Dr
Gerald dur the key chush Jesus peace be
upon Him liar lunatic or Lord none of
the above as we stated he is no way
indeed not a liar he is not a lunatic
and Lord if you meant what we said
earlier teacher like all the messengers
of God they were teaching people how to
worship God then we agree but if you say
Lord Divine not at all exactly now tell
us for God so loved the world that He
Sent His only begotten son that whoever
believeth in him shall have eternal life
the preachers up on a Podium they're
saying look look look and they're giving
this verse what do you have to say well
um first of all begotten does not appear
in all versions no uh some manuscripts
delete the the word begotten uh
entirely um I think we have to look
contextually you know throughout the
Bible we see all sorts of people being
referred to as Son of God well or child
of God yeah you know um David is
referred to as Son of God uh
Ephraim uh son of Joseph peace be upon
Him referred to as a child of God Etc we
have numerous people throughout the Old
Testament being referred to as Son of
God the Israelite people as a whole
referred to as the children of
God basically when you said someone was
the son of God or the child of God
within the context of first century
Palestine you are basically saying there
is a very Pious and righteous manh and
that's all you were saying that's it
yeah that's in the context yeah
historically I think now psychologically
uh if we look at this from another
totally different perspective people
attach their themselves to to to Jesus
and we love him oh yes and no muslim as
I said earlier is a Muslim unless he
believes in Jesus but people just
wanting so much to believe this they've
been taught this this has been instilled
in them and they develop you know this
relationship they feel with Jesus and
now they're deducing this verse no
matter if we go on for another two hours
or a day and we'll hopefully for the
sincere person by now he's he's got it
but the other person just holding on so
tight to this psychologically is there
you know uh from another perspective why
do you think people do
this well yeah one one thing that
happens is how the Bible is translated
yeah you know if you look in the new
most versions of the Bible you look in
the New Testament if it's referring to
Jesus as Son of God like in the verse
that we quoted earlier you know they put
a capital S on sun that capital S isn't
in the Greek yeah you know that's
something the translator sticking in to
make sure you interpret the passage a
certain way but that's not actually in
the Bible you know the Greek doesn't
have Capital lowercase distinctions yeah
what I'm thinking look at this you know
when you you form God into your mind and
your life around that now you've gotten
comfortable you're making your own way
you're doing your own thing and this now
you got the JC go card you get to throw
everything on his back which now you
know it it it alleviates some of maybe
the the sad the the the responsibility
that you're supposed to have you know
and and you don't want to change your
ways I'm not going to get into nobody's
heart but you can see like somehow where
you know this is convenient now I can do
my own thing you know God I made it into
my mind how I feel that he should be and
now I'm stuck on that can this be
possibly something that's going on well
yeah and and there's there's certainly
that there's also the aspect that you
know um there's this sense of assurance
Assurance that's it that
uh trinitarian Christianity offers you
know if if you believe in Jesus as the
Son of God and accept the sacrifice he
allegedly made for you on the cross then
you are assured of salvation
doesn't matter what else yeah you know
you've got it made this is your get out
of hell card free to using a paraphrase
for Monopoly yeah yeah yeah yeah uh
Islam doesn't offer that level of
assurance no you know uh because Islam
says look you have to watch how you live
your life mhm you have to believe
correctly that there's only one God one
God and worship that one
God but you have to live your life
correctly yes you can sin against God
you cannot sin against your fellow man
yes you know you have to live correctly
this is all going to fit onto a scale on
the day of
judgment now fortunately for all of us
God's Mercy is also going to enter into
that equation otherwise there'd be a lot
of us in a lot of very bad shape yes but
uh there is still this issue of
accountability MH for one's life that's
there in a slam definitely so the
question can we say that it's been
answered liar lunatic or Lord none of
the above none of the above yeah but
what Mighty messenger of God can we
Mighty messenger of God Etc you had
mentioned before you know teacher Master
Messiah
um let me complete my thought and I'll
get back to Messiah uh teacher Master
Etc it's interesting to see what that
word actually is in the text you know
and it's basically Rabbi Rabbi teacher
Rabbi yeah you know is being referred to
as Rabbi yeah uh now in terms of messiah
messiah which means Christ also well
Christ is the Greek Greek uh version of
the Hebrew word mashia yeah or which we
say Messiah so we believe he was the
Messiah yeah yeah of course Quran tells
us he's the Christ the a word of God
yeah he's he's a word of God but in the
word of God in the sense that we're told
in the Quran that uh in The Miraculous
Creation Of The Virgin birth God says
be and it is Jesus is created in the in
the the womb of Mary yes yeah we're out
of time and people if they want to
invite you to do a lecture to uh you
know how can they get a hold of you uh
they can contact me at uh Dirk online
books.com thank you once again for being
with us here on the show my pleasure
brother God Almighty Allah reward you
and we got to answer another very very
important question today it was was
Jesus peace be upon him liar lunatic or
Lord and it's none of the above he was
indeed a mighty messenger of God who
came with the same message that all the
messengers of God taught to worship the
one God the one Creator and not what he
created be thankful to him be grateful
to him and do all the good prove by
action that you love God because talk is
cheap and you're going to be held
accountable because there's a day of
judgment and if you do good you strive
for good you'll have Paradise you'll get
God's Grace and God's mercy but you got
to prove it through actions you got to
walk the walk talk the talk and continue
to tune in every week here to the dean
show to learn more we'll see you next
time God willing peace be unto
you one of the beautiful things about
our religion of Islam is the emphasis on
Direct ritual and prayer to God directly
there is no intermediary the lights will
go on after the party and the party will
end it's very simple and very clear
there are no super ious rituals no
strange incantations time is running out
we might not make it till tomorrow and
this is something that we need to think
about no speech is better than to do
that to call people to Allah and to do
the work no speech is better no nothing
is better than that is it true that if
one person on the Allah giving you the
ability to guide someone with Allah's
permission the Creator's permission that
is better than everything in this world
better than the whole world and
everything that's in it in in another
narration it's better than the best of
wealth but if we really felt that Eddie
Would we not be out giving da and this
is something that we encourage all the
msay all the da organizations the mids
to get this we want to print more we
give these to the non-muslims for free
for free for free we want our brothers
in humanity
Brothers it's
lame everybody sleeping
I
arise and ask a lot to forgive me oh a
you
see oh you
know all the sins I
do I turn to you to forgive my sins and
my
[Music]
heart I'm your sinful
slave you're my love and Lord
I'm the one runs
away oh gu be