alhamdulillah alikum greetings a peace
get guess what it's been in the making
it's been a long time but we got him
he's on the run I'm on the run but
alhamdulillah I finally got him guess
who it
is is
thean this is
thean Jal
Shake how have you been I know how how
long's it been now we've been talking I
call you we talk we see at the
conventions how long has that been now
how time flies huh several years several
years Shake today you gave a very
important talk on science in the
Quran now there's been some questions
being asked how far because some people
have actually tried to prove some things
with the Quran and then they they ended
up doing more harm with that right MH so
my first question is to you like kind of
summarizing what you were saying today
in your talk on how you can go ahead and
manage this without going too far I
think we need to look at that in a cool
minded way and justly balanced wasti way
there are those of course who who argue
that you should not refer to the Quran
in the context of science number one
because the Quran is a book of guidance
in the first place not a book of science
I agree with of course it is secondly
they say science
changes and people would be happy that
oh this science became consistent with
the Quran alhamdulillah and then there
come some new scientific discoveries
that prove it was false so they say why
make or create a situation where some
Muslims might start getting shaky in
their uh beliefs
uh but on the other hand we find that
the Quran itself does refer to
uh contemplation or discoveries in in
the
future the verse that was CED quoted
Allah says we will show them our signs
in the horizons and in themselves that
mean we have to look into scientific
explanation of the universe and
ourselves as a human being that's number
one number two that the brothers who
oppose that are right if they mean by
science scientific theory and there is a
big difference between it scientific
theory and fact a scientific theory
begins with some
propositions it may have many elements
of Truth scientifically provable ones
but not completely just like the theory
of evolution it's called Theory not fact
because there are debates and even among
those who believe in evolution there are
differing views on that
matter so if indeed that's what they
mean yes theories change but if we focus
on facts facts scientific fact is
something that has been verified
empirically you can duplicate it and
verify it over and over again uh an
example of some of the basic
physiological fact functions of the body
and you know there are Basics there that
would not change and if there is any new
discovery it will not negate for example
how the heart works and pump the blood
and so on but it would add more depth or
more detailed information on it another
example of a fact that was not until
recently really definitively factual is
the spherical shape of the Earth Earth
now I mean people from the uh from the
Moon and from other satellites are were
able to commun you know communicate to
us directly the shape of the earth and
we have the pictures of it so nobody can
say that the Earth is flat anymore so if
we limit it to that but there is a third
condition that I think we should keep in
mind I don't personally believe in
saying science prove the validity of the
Quran for us as Muslims the Quran is the
ultimate truth because it is the word of
Allah who have the infinite knowledge
Infinite
Wisdom uh infinite power in this
universe so we cannot compare his
wisdom uh against standards of science
as if science is the ultimate science
has a very important role Muslim
were of the Prime contributor to uh
human civilization including many
Sciences for centuries and centuries we
have no problem with that in fact many
discoveries might even increase our Iman
in that sense but our standard is the
word of Allah so I'd rather say science
the definitive science alhamdulillah
seem to have came to the same conclusion
already after many centuries as the
Quran is that 14 centuries ago so I
think there is a relationship like I say
which is just balance not going to an
extreme or the other rejecting science
altogether or taking science as the
ultimate truth ultimate truth is the
word of
Allah science has its own scope we
should use it fully but when we talk
about Revelation from Allah tala we have
to put it above anything else even
though science has not fully discovered
that scientific theories still when
anyone looks at the Quran the message is
believable it's simple worship the
Creator not the creation talks about the
Hereafter talks about the purpose of
life like no other book in the world now
when you come to these scient prophecies
in the Quran now when you come can you
give us an example of a couple of those
substantiated facts that there is no way
that a a a man 1,400 years ago or group
of men or the whole world together could
have collaborated to know these facts
that are mentioned in the Quran revealed
then and we still have it preserved
today can you give us an example of
maybe a couple verses or whatnot that
you're just like blown away like wow
actually we can look at it from two
perspectives uh in the universe and also
in ourselves and the Quran refers to
both and looking into our own physiology
and embryology and so on uh as far as
universal things that nobody seem to
argue about is just the point that we're
talking about that the Earth is
spherical and you know until medieval
times that was regarded as a as a heresy
on the part of
s I give you an example in Surah 39
Surah it says and I can I say it also in
Arabic for Arabic audience who can
relate
which translate more appropriately that
Allah subhana tala coils the night over
the day and coils the day over the night
how does that go with a flat Earth it's
impossible from Co that means the Earth
is explicitly really described as
spherical in nature when the the Quran
says and
Surah
31 Allah merges the day into the night
and merge the night over the day if the
Earth were flat and there is no merger
the whole world is day the whole world
is night uh these are examples of many
very clear mentioned in the Quran that
it is not in dispute and I don't think
that the prophet of Islam or the Arabs
and I'm not sure even if anybody else
had any
notion uh in the sth century when the
Quran was revealed to the prophet the
other Branch I mentioned is in our own
creation if you look at the science of
embryology and read uh in the Surah 23
and from
12 from verse 12 to 14 you find an
amazing staging of the uh growth and
development of the embryo using such a
language that in fact could only be
fully understood now after the discovery
of the electronic microscope even
genetics is alluded to as well now how
can we explain of that and I I give you
already a group of aat but in fact
beside this verses our aat in Surah
23 if you research search the Quran
about how the term was used you find
that it is even more miraculous for
example the Quran describes the the
human is Created from a very very tiny
amount of liquid which is true one sperm
out of several Millions sometimes
hundreds of millions would be enough to
fertilize the oval but then you look
also further in the Quran you find that
that uh initial creation the potential
of a human being describe that same way
as that is differentiated and un
different shate sorry that CES in let me
just backtrack a little bit
uh not that is
mixed
okay the the the mixing is a reference
to the fact that indeed you need the
contribution of male and female because
they mix that's what happen when the
ovam is fertilized by uh by the sperm so
that's an amazing thing at the time when
we know that until the 17th
century uh there was a preformation
theories as they call it was the
dominant one that the baby exist in a
miniature form one theory in the head of
the sperm and another in the ovam of the
female and both of course are wrong
because you need both of them when the
fertilization take place when the
chromosomes from both sides are
intermingled so there this is an amaz
and then you go on about
the something that clings and it's very
amazing because that's what happened
also that in one stage earlier stage
when the the ovam is fertilized it
exactly clings to this lining of the
uterus and then develop what might call
like a root system where it drives its
it's nutrients and get rid of the waste
this is
just like it blows the mind off and
that's why one of the great uh gurus in
human anatomy Dr Keith Moore who was
Professor very well known worldwide was
a professor in the University of
Toronto his books have been translated
in dozens of languages really an
authority uh when he was shown this ayat
in the Quran he shows his utter
amazement that to his knowledge and a
speciality nothing like that was even
close to be have to have been known in
any Scripture or any uh even science in
prior to the of course the mission of
prophet Muhammad Sall Ali so the
examples are numerous you mentioned
earlier about history even the discovery
of the body of the Pharaoh nobody knew
where that is the Bible which is the
most authentic and common source of uh
of the Bible speak about the the
drowning of the Pharaoh and his hosts
and the salvation of mosa Prophet Moses
and his follower and peace be upon him
uh but it doesn't say where his body it
was only in the late 19 late 19th
century that the body of the Pharaoh was
discovered in Egypt and Dr
Maurice Bou in his excellent book The
Bible the Quran and science make a very
convincing argument that in fact all
points including the examination of the
Mummy of the Pharaoh who believed and he
gives reason to have been the Pharaoh at
the time of Moses the Pharaoh of the
flood uh in fact uh is that that was
discovered and then the Quran for
Century AG it says today we save you in
body Save You O Pharaoh not only that
you drown and die but we save you in
body so that you will be a sign for
people coming after you yes a sign yes
that the body was found already Subhan
Allah it is a sign of the miracle of the
Quran and the fact that nobody knew
about it nobody wrote about it even the
Israelites themselves who pay a lot of
attention to their history the examples
are amazing and innumerable these are
substantiated facts no doubt about it
and and and this is something where
there there's there's no room for
disagreement this is confirmed these
points that you that you mentioned
except the part of History to be honest
it's very very likely because if you
read morrice B it would not be the same
for example to be honest like the
spherical shape of the Earth the
development of the human embryo with
Precision uh in
language including like even an illusion
to
genetics means that this when the the
chromosomes of the male and female
that's the the egg and and the the
sperm uh it it determines the destiny
because of the genetic characteristics
of both mother and father
are determined and once that's
determined that's it even inclinations
or
uh inclination to get certain diseases
you it's all and the Quran says
Destiny determined it's future
development it just blows the mind if we
really were to be fair and openminded
rather than dismiss all Revelation this
are superstitions all this that let's
open our eyes and examine how about the
one where God Almighty Allah is talking
about the two Seas yes one sweet and
then can you take it from here how about
that is that also something that was
impossible for anyone to know there was
no what it jako in the oceans at the
time can you elaborate on this I haven't
heard that Jack custo even discovered
that being such an luminary
oceanography but the Quran again in the
seventh said she speak the two bodies of
water that meet two different bodies of
that meat but don't mix up as if there
is a partition bar unseen partition
dividing them now it is a fact I mean
check any book that deal with this
issues uh take North America for example
the uh the Gulf Stream it's a current
warm water warmer than the water around
it that begins from the Gulf of Mexico
move across the shores of North America
moving East coming down across the
shores of the uh of Europe before it
dissipates totally and amazingly again
what the scientists say is that even
though it is water it is water inside
water yet the characteristics for
thousands of miles the characteristics
of both types of water maintain the
temperature even maintain and that's why
coastal cities in Europe and North
America are relatively mild because of
its current that is even warm for that
sense and that it so that to my
knowledge is an undeniable fact in the
uh in the cape in South
Africa uh they also noted that the water
coming from both
oceans Pacific and Atlantic meet at that
point just the tip of the cave but they
don't mix as if they're coming and
turning the other way in Egypt this is a
wellknown phenomenon that this the since
you mentioned fresh water the river nine
is fresh water but it poures
in and in the
Mediterranean uh one would say since the
Mediterranean is salt and the River Nile
water is sweet that immediately both
will mix and become semi salt but that
doesn't happen for quite a
distance the fresh water of the N remain
and keep its Sweetness in spite of being
surrounded by the salt until finally
they mix up this is these are
phenomenal phenomenon some people from
Pakistan told have a similar similar
phenomenon there I believe that this is
probably at the level of effect how
about where God Almighty Allah is
talking about I we sent down I sent down
the um he talks about the iron what
about that one from my reading about
that that everything can be already
extracted from the earth it's formulated
in the earth like know various elements
but only
iron comes from a sky maybe sometimes in
the form of you
know uh what do they call it meteorites
meteorites or something of that nature
so when it comes to iron it says it
didn't say we just created or let you
extract it says we sent down the
iron it's rather interesting phenomena
for
uh people specializing in Metallurgy or
physics it's just amazing give us give
us one that are you finished at that
point yeah yeah give us one that you Rec
called that someone that maybe someone
used and now it's not so statu and it
actually might cause more problems
because it's maybe not fact does
anything come to your mind let me make
clear again is there anything that you
can recall that someone tried to use as
a scientific fact or maybe it goes
against and they try to push an Ayah
they try to push something from the
Quran to say that this is a miracle but
it's not is there anything that yeah for
example yeah uh
it says that Allah says in the Quran
anyone who does an atom's
weight uh of uh good he will be shown or
giving the reward and if anyone making
an atom's weight of evil will be
shown and then in another ay it
says or something less than a an at and
they say look we're talking here about
splitting of the atom look at that the
Quran even speak about nuclear
fusion one has to be
objective and not rush to conclusions
like this one has to find the language
and what does it mean in the language if
you mean by
an atom in the sense that we know
scientifically today nobody could have
made any sense of it at the time of the
Prophet Quran is not Mysteries that
people don't make it IT addresses them
in language that they
understand is understood in the language
as something like the some spec of
something something really close so to
say that this refer to the atomic energy
or splitting the atom I believe it's uh
it's really something which is uh
perhaps far off far off okay we only got
a few more minutes tell shake from your
experience and you've got a lot of it
alhamdulillah you've done a lot of
debates even back from the Ahmed you
were there right so what now for those
people who are out there sharing the
message of Peace of purpose trying to
humbly you know communicate this
beautiful message to the world and now
you know you've seen what works uh we
know that is in the hands of God but
what have you seen is the most effective
approach you know is it is it the the
debate approach Hardline from the Bible
you know proving someone else's religion
is wrong is it this way that way what
have you seen what can you advise those
who are out there delivering the what
what you've seen works much better I
have to preface that answer by saying
that there is no doubt in the mind of
any committed Muslim based on the
directives in the Quran and Hadith is to
share Islam not talking very to share
Islam with others without compulsion
without pressure without bride that's
sharing the truth for those who are
interested to listen there is no
question about the vinous evidence of
that in the Quran and the Hadith of the
Prophet sallallahu Al but to say that is
definitive does not answer another
question what is the most effective
means under what circumstances and that
is the very serious issue that seem to
be missed
uh first of all in an age like this uh
where we find the many of the Christians
of today and I'm not generalizing one
way or the other but a lot of Christians
today have been opening up to good
relationship with their fellow Muslims
are their fellow citizens and neighbors
and colleagues at work many of them
supported uh just cause causes uh
and protested against and against the
invasion of Iraq and the excuses of mass
weapons of mass destruction all that was
in Britain I was told about 2 million
people came the overwhelming majority
were not Muslims people were Christians
some Jews some might having other mus
communities with this kind of type of
relationship I think what is more
important here is not to debate in fact
I have to confess I throughout my
interaction with the Christian Community
Jewish and sometimes multifaith
discussions uh my Approach has been very
largely dialogue not debate a particular
issue and both sides present their views
respectfully and then discussion but
there were a couple of occasions where
you get someone
who's attacking I don't want to name
things doesn't listen and you know it's
not objective type of of discussion
where
sometimes I used a stronger but I hope
still polite argument to clarify the
issues but even that I don't feel
comfortable being in that situation but
this for you know something that
situation imposed that on me so even if
we have to dialogue uh
give and take respectfully F you know it
shouldn't really be a debate with the
psychology of who's the winner who the
loser everybody's a loser unless we
listen to one another secondly that even
if we get into that dialogue why should
we over focus on the areas of difference
rather than harnessing and capitalizing
on areas of
similarity for example if we still keep
dwelling about Trinity for example and
we we know that a lot of our fellow
Christians do not even believe in it and
some believe in it in so many different
ways so I mean it's like a dead horse
and instead of looking
focus on on differences why not look at
the notion of basic unity of Allah
subhana T yes we don't understand it in
the light of Trinity but we both are
monotheistic
people more importantly
what that that believe in God and love
of God should teach us to relate to one
another as human beings as fellow
citizens and we have
always or most often I should say uh we
have forgotten so many important
similarities because we don't understand
one another the more I learn for example
uh about the Bible for the sake of
discussion to understand the point of
view others the more I discover
similarity with Islam that I never
thought of and many of my colleagues my
fellow Christians who engage in
discussion quiet discussion like this
they tell us you believe in this Subhan
Allah so they discover also that the
idea that Islam and Christianity are the
TNS that will shall never meet is uh is
is not quite true I think this what we
need to to focus on we discuss common
issues of concern like family like uh
violence on any level like social
justice like spirituality like the
overwhelming pressure of
secularism that become sometimes a
religion in itself imposed on
some these are issues of environment
these are all issues that I think we can
meet and discuss not debate discuss and
we we'll find some beautiful
comr we are about out of time I got to
get one more question in Shake have you
heard of this show The Wheel of Fortune
you remember the Wheel of Fortune it was
a game show way back Wheel of Fortune
and now here's your host Chuck wry
Charlie there was a gentleman by the
name of Chuck woy have you heard of
Chuck he's also um he was a game show
host he was pretty well known he tweeted
something and I want to know how would
you if we can get this message to him if
this gets to him how would you respond
to this this was his tweet I was very
shocked it's one thing when you hear you
know islamophobia is a big machine it's
like2 200 plus million dollar annually
people are spending to you know debase
Islam and and many of the misinformation
lies and I think he our brother in
humanity got caught up into this he says
and I want to know how would you respond
to this in short he says if you don't
know and that's is Chuck wry if you
don't know Islam is evil then you don't
know history and and you refuse to
reason I'm not saying that every Muslim
is evil different different how would
you respond to him if you had a chance
to sit with him to talk with him or
maybe we can get this message to him
what would you say to him the basic
message to him and to other friends as
as well don't mix Islam as an authentic
teaching with actions of some Muslims
tell me of one single word religion
where throughout history they never
committed as individual or collectively
some of the worst kind of
atrocities if I were to understand
Christianity for example and the noble
teaching of Christ peace be upon him in
the light of the Crusades or the
Inquisition or Vietnam War or world wars
and all of that I will get a totally or
aart in South Africa in the name of
religion I'd say you'll be mistaken
because you're taking
bad examples even not even in he bad
examples of people who deviated from
those Noble teaching and called it
Christian acts the same thing appli to
Judaism some of the Jews and their
treatment Israelis in particular not
just as a religion Israelis or Zionist
in more particular treating the
Palestinian taking their land away and
building uh settlements on it Buddhism
beautiful Rel religion he has had some
good point yet look at how some Buddhist
in in manmar are burning Muslims and
their Villages and killing them right
and left I shouldn't say that Buddha
told them to do this Hinduism and the
riots and burning a life of Muslim also
during some of those RS and some
religious leaders even incite and
approve of that like those who incited
the Crusades and all of the other
brutalities so don't mix the teach
with some of the people and avoid also
selectivity if you look at Muslim
history 14th
centuries it there was only minor issues
that pertain to fighting in fact but it
was a civilization that contributed
immensely and actually prompted the uh
European Renaissance it's a culture art
architecture so try don't try to reduce
everything only to the negative part to
which we admit yes Muslim like any
others committed wrongs there's no
question the difference sometimes is
only a degree so be fair and if you
point finger toward others you know that
many other fingers are pointing to you
if you're fair and honorable in terms of
making comparison so let's not get into
this
pmics wrong do you understand that Islam
that you call evil did you understand it
from its authentic sources not through
pical writings or islamophobic material
I would be very glad to meet with you
and sit down quietly and peacefully and
respectfully and explain to you Islam
giving from its original authentic
sources and tell me what is wrong and
then I try to after that uh help you I I
seriously beautiful beautiful we pray
that this message gets to you and all of
humanity we're here at the dean show
trying to clear up those misconceptions
trying to deliver this truth to you and
if you have any other questions call us
take the higher route name
calling it doesn't it didn't it it
didn't solve any problems but making the
human connection talking like civilized
human beings that's how we can develop a
better understanding call us at 1800 662
Islam if you have any questions and we
hope to see you here every week at the
dean show subscribe if you haven't
already until next time peace be with
you