when the president did you say brother
did you say brother say that
i did say brother yeah so it's really
nice to see you and we wanted to talk to
you because you're a
historian you're very familiar what's
going on in that part of the world right
now with some of the controversies
with the masjid that was open
sophia can you bring us up to speed on
what's going on over there
of course inshallah first of all um
it is it is a very complicated area the
balkans as we both know um
is a very complicated and and and
difficult area to
describe to people who don't know the
balkans and uh the problems that we have
there and one of these big issues is
exactly that
is the issue of uh what do we do with
the different heritage that we have
there
now from the side of the greeks having
ottoman and islamic heritage from the
side of the turks
having a lot of byzantine and greek
orthodox heritage now under this one
obviously
falls the ideas of here and the idea of
here and it
is it was and still is a very important
cathedral in the eyes of the greeks
especially
because the biggest issue here is not
necessarily it's not necessarily just a
religious aspect the aspect is very
ethnic
very political actually and rather i
would say political than it is religious
um religion is just um
a secondary issue it's not really
necessarily something that i would say
especially on the side of the greeks is
more they have lost their pride
rather because of the greek orthodox
cathedral
than the christian cathedral for them it
is more something ethnic
than religious whereas for the muslims
they take it and i have to laugh every
time when i read the comments they
really don't understand
the mindset of of of the greeks and the
russians for example
that it is rather an ethnic thing a
political thing it's politicized
um so with regards to the turks let's be
honest
turkey has been playing a very important
role down there in a very secular role
and turkey is the only secular muslim
country in the world
which might seem contradicting itself
but what we mean with that is simply
muslims in a way of the majority
population being muslim
however politics and and
and and and the idea of the state is
very secular it's the only secular
country next to france in the world
so it is ironic to play around with
religious symbols and there are many
things that i can really i have written
a statement on my website that everybody
can read this in english and in german
and i really think that um it's
something that we have to be very
careful with
cheating on the one side but being
unhappy on the other side and and
drawing basically being gloomy on the
other side like certain bishops do
a certain greek orthodox leaders do so
get bring us up to speed so
for some people who don't know what is
what is this let's start from the
beginning
what is this this uh sophia this was
originally what was it originally
and take us back ins to in some history
like from the beginning okay
bismillah okay you're right it has
become such a common thing nowadays so i
didn't want to start okay anyway
uh very simple the is this cathedral
meaning a very big uh orthodox for the
greek orthodox people for the christian
orthodox it is a very important
um um at church let's call it church was
more than a church a church is basically
a smaller um
version of the cathedral the cathedral
is something where you will find
also the bigger church leaders having a
mass on a sunday for example
so this is a cathedral for the greek
orthodox people in istanbul
in turkey now istanbul before
used to be the capital of the byzantine
empire it was called constantinople
in the sixth century under justinian the
first
this cathedral was was was built as a
major cathedral
to represent christendom but not only
especially the orthodox part of
christendom so what's happening with the
orthodox power we have three big
denominations in the christian world
we have the catholics as the biggest one
then we have the protestants and then we
have the orthodox people who are
serbs bulgarians romanians russians
greeks albanians
mainly on the balkan peninsula as well
as in russia you will find the greek
orthodox people
these greek orthodox people played a
very important role
during the time of the development of
islam during the time of rasulullah
because west rome as it was called
meaning
italy rome up to spain
portugal england even that all used to
be the west roman empire and it was
attacked
by many kind of different uh barbarian
people as they called them germanic
people especially
so rome was actually at its end it was
actually just east rome
which when allah
which is wrongly fully translated as
romans the romans
it is it he means it is romans but it is
actually east rome
so we're talking about the byzantine
empire which was divided as i said
between west rome where they spoke
latin and east rome where they spoke
greek
and these are basically the ancestors of
the nowadays greek people
and orthodox people and they consider
constantinople
so istanbul nowadays as being the
base and the headquarters of the
orthodoxy and this cathedral was the
headquarters at the base of the base
so it was the center of
the orthodox belief and that in the
sixth century so after that basically
what happened it was nearly a thousand
years functioning nearly a thousand
years until
um in between there was a small 50 to 60
years
um occupation by the
crusaders coming from west western
western europe
meaning the frankish crusaders they
turned this cathedral into a catholic
cathedral
there are even important sources and
authentic sources saying
that they desecrated this this cathedral
basically what they did
they even allowed prostitutes to dance
in this cathedral because
they considered the orthodox christians
as as heretics as the muslims so for the
catholic christians
orthodox greeks and orthodox russians
and orthodox people
were actually heretics so for them when
they entered constantinople
they pillaged and they raped and they
killed worse than what they accuse
what what what the non-muslims accuse us
muslims
of having done under sultan muhammad and
this is an important point to mention
this happened in the 13th century
so so these were these were so these
were other christians who came in
so the we determined that this was not a
church's
cathedral and then you had the crusaders
who came
and then they ended up taking over this
cathedral
correct that's right and then you say
and then you said they had what they had
what what what did they have in there
then
many many sources speak about um
um a disrespect of the cathedral simply
because it was an orthodox cathedral
it was not seen as something christian
and holy so by other christians
by the catholics let's call it by the
catholics this is not muslims now these
are christians against christians
christians with catholics we are talking
about western
latin-speaking catholics from
the area which is known as france
belgium holland germany these kind of
people
against orthodox people from the east
eastern european
and eastern christian orthodox peoples
greeks russians and so on so they
considered each other as heretics
basically
so we're talking now about the 13th
century before the big
um um yeah the big onslaught happened
against the ottoman turks and other
turkic people so for them that time for
the orthodox people
the catholics were considered even worse
than the muslims
there is even a slogan there is
subhanallah there's even a slogan by a
byzantine emperor
who said rather under the yoke of the
turks
then under the yoke of the catholic
latins so
that in itself shows also the
relationship that was there obviously
and the catholics themselves again as i
mentioned they had absolutely no respect
for the
orthodox brethren actually they did
a pillage and they did loot and they did
kill and they did rape and this is all
documented in authentic sources
there's nothing that we make up not just
to make it seem as if they were the bad
guys yeah
this happened in the 13th century and
this for around 50 55 years
this cathedral was turned into a
catholic if you want to call it catholic
cathedral
but it was more brother than anything
else whereas later again
when the byzantine did you say brother
did you say brockton say that
i did say brother yes um after the
catholic the byzantines took over
they basically in the 12 50 60s
they made it again orthodox cathedral as
it was before but the power
and the dynamic and the might that was
there of the business before
had totally disappeared the latin
crusaders had actually destroyed the
byzantine empire already in the 13th
century
and there was no way for them to come
back again
to uh to to their old power to the old
might as they were before
so it is very important to see because
we're not when when the ottomans came
with sultan
vata came and opened the city for islam
and for the ottomans
um it was not too difficult to open it i
mean so now who came you mentioned the
name
what's this name now that you mentioned
that now we have someone coming
uh who's coming into the picture you say
what's his name
now it's about the time where he's
coming in and is he coming in as a
conqueror
is he coming at is a liberator conqueror
how how is he being welcomed
received at this time excellent question
indeed as i said before the latins were
considered basically as occupiers the
catholic christians were considered as
occupiers
and the orthodox could not deal with
that and for them
they were really terrible they were
animals in many sources you would see
exactly the description
now after that when they left in 12 12
16 12 61
the byzantines take over again the
orthodox take over again
but exactly 200 200 years later in 1453
this sultan the one i mentioned before
sultan mehmed ii
who was given the title alfatic because
he was the
opener and we should not forget that in
the quran surat al-fatiha
means the opening chapter of the quran
it is not the
conquering chapter of the quran it is
not it's not a specific and the other
title but opening it's extremely
important and i do insist
to call him rather the opener than the
conqueror whatever else name
so that was his that that was his name
the the
opener absolutely absolutely and one
important thing what he did basically
and again this is authentic and
documented sources
so you can say like can you can you
synonymous with uh
opening the doors of guidance opening
the doors of salvation
opening the doors of goodness of piety
of righteousness these are the kind of
things
in many ways don't forget that in the
arabic language
when they say a city or a country's
is conquered let's use that term they do
not say
conquer they say the city is opened open
for islam
open for the spread of islam that's what
it means basically and that's exactly
what he did with constantinople
constantinople
was open to the muslims and opened for
the spread of islam and that's what
and the opening of that is the opening
of pure monotheism is that not right
absolute absolutely absolute don't
forget that because don't forget the
trinity in the christian orthodox church
and not only the orthodox but the
christian church
we know that the trinity played a very
and still plays a very important role
so indeed you can rather say that when
sultan
brought reality brought islam and
brought the pure monotheism
obviously this cathedral actually became
really a cathedral for monotheism
as they claimed to have it before but
they didn't so now it became
the cathedral for monotheism and became
a mosque we should not forget this that
it was turned into a masjid once sultan
mehmed father came and the first thing
that he did
he prayed two rakah and turned the
cathedral into a masjid
we heard his state until now go ahead
i'm sorry
in the cathedral state a mosque became a
masjid and stayed until 1935 a masjid
so for around 500 years plus until
mustafa
malata took the the founder of the
republic of turkey
and turned it into a museum so basically
what's happening now here
turkey the republic of turkey nowadays
has turned
the museum back into a mosque and not a
mosque and not a church or a cathedral
back into a
into a mosque but but it's a museum that
has turned it has been turned into a
mosque
so basically we have to look at these
things these are important details i
find because we need to
uh be clear with our language here how
the way we use our language so
mohammed fatih sultan al-fatih
he the opener did he we hear some news
about him actually
buying it buying this land buying this
because is this true
okay look um i have seen the the the
these uh facebook comments and
everything going around
i could not find any evidence i have
looked into that but i could not find
any clear and authentic evidence to
really sit down and tell you yes 100 is
true i cannot guarantee that this is
true
that he bought the cathedral um with a
logic
uh way of thinking look i mean the truth
is
that constantinople was opened by the
muslims and everything that belonged to
con
that was part of the orthodox of the
byzantine empire became part of the of
the ottomans it was absolutely common
for
any occupier of any country and city and
region
to turn the churches or mosques into
their religion
that means that you would have byzantine
uh
people turning regions that were maybe
buddhist
turning the the the buddhist temples
into churches or destroying them and
build churches
you will have more muslims entering
regions
and turning churches into mosques simply
because now we have the majority of
muslims living there
the cathedral of course being the main
the base of christendom
or the orthodoxy in the city of
constantinople was of course
now a political fact and a symbol that
was now turned
to show that hey we are here the muslims
are here so it is supposed to be
the main mosque of our empire nothing
wrong with that and islamically seen
i've read also
some crazy comments about that it was
haram to do that there is nothing wrong
with that
there is nothing haram about turning the
cathedral at the mosque absolutely not
we also hear that some people because
you're an academic you're a historian
you're somebody you're
a doctor in this area of history so we
want to bring on someone
of such a academic stature to help us
differentiate what is sound and what's
not
and so as as the point of him buying it
that's
it might it might not we don't know
hundred percent absolutely at this
moment i cannot
i can't okay so that's up in the air
uh what about it being a place where the
mercenaries we also
heard that the mercenaries they were
they occupied this
and they were running their missions
outside of this
uh cathedral have you heard this
i heard this but this is absolutely very
weak this statement is extremely weak
okay okay and i can i can i can say 90
90
that is enough not entirely true okay
and then this that is the most popular
very weak statement
uh and then we heard from you that the
the being it turned into a brothel so
how far what was the actual right before
the
opener came muhammad al fatih came what
was the state of this
cathedral a few years before a year
before
was it in that brothel state like you
had mentioned
all right the the the state of the
brothel or the state that was used
misused
by the latin crusaders that was between
1204 with the fourth crusade up to
around 12 60 12 61. so around 50 years
let's go
let's say around 50 55 years during
these five decades six decades
you had the state of the cathedral was
devastated it was really dilapidated and
the way that
it was misused it was absolutely
disrespected and for the reason that i
mentioned before the catholics
the latin crusaders did not consider the
orthodox they consider them brother as
heretics
so they had no respect for the other
religions calling it that way whether
they're both christians but they they
have very opposing statements with
regards to christianity some of them
was so yeah so so so the state of it
of the the disrespected state that it
was in stayed definitely
until 1261 until the middle of the 13th
century
when the byzantines took over they of
course started to
um to put back the the the original role
to to
get it to play the role that it used to
play before but because the byzantine
empire had weakened
so much that there was no money in the
treasury there was absolutely
nothing that they can do it was in a
very sad state
when actually sultan mehmed fatigue took
over it was not the glorious cathedral
as it used to be before the 13th century
it was definitely not the way that it
used to be 200 years before
definitely not and there wasn't empire
was at its end there was absolutely
nothing that these people could do
anymore
they had basically what was keeping the
muslims out of
constantinople for around 200 years till
after
the latin conquest what was keeping them
out was simply because they themselves
had
issues in the muslim world the ottomans
were fighting for example with
with asian mongols so the mongols were
very strong in the 13th century
so they had issues in asia themselves
and they could not be busy with istanbul
and with europe
so that's why it took it it kept them
out for such a long time they could not
conquer
or they did not want to they didn't have
time to invest and money to invest to go
and open constantinople which happened
then
in the 15th century so we're trying to
paint a picture to see how was it like
for instance if you have the functioning
kaaba in mecca
where you have millions of people coming
from all over okay that's one state
where was it like cobwebs and run down
you said dilapidated
in that state or the first state where
you have it's it's busy it's working
it's functioning
or is it a totally different picture
where it's
it's cobwebs there's nobody there it's
run down
how can how can we what kind of picture
can we perform in our head
okay yes in general you can say it was a
run-down state
however they still had masses going on
there they still had the sunday
sunday masses going on they still tried
to to make use of
the cathedral they still wanted people
to believe that this is the center of
orthodoxy
although it had to move away after a
while obviously jerusalem was more
important
even moscow was you know russia has
become more important
so yes it was
a a sad try a pathetic try to be very
honest
a pathetic attempt to keep the cathedral
to take it back to its
former glory so it was it was never
again
in the glory that it had until the 13th
century until it was occupied
by the crusaders in 1204. so what did
the
now the muslims comes those those who
are in the way of jesus
of moses abraham those whose are
bringing the pure monotheism
uh did they turn it into a nightclub uh
horse stall did they disrespect it like
we see a lot of disrespect
and just moss vanishing in some of these
places some people who are
objecting to this the way they've
treated uh moss they've turned them into
nightclubs
especially in some places uh uh in
in athens i heard is this true that's
absolutely true yes we have in greece
uh a very big amount of of of mosques
that still
are there but not functioning anymore
there is
actually the only mosque that are
functioning in greece are the ones in
thrace
in western thrace which is in the north
of greece where you still have a muslim
minority and
even there not all mosques are are
functioning as they should be
uh with regards to athens yes there are
basically just
two bigger mosques in athens in the
center of athens
the one is nothing else but a storage
room and it was used as a stable
actually
for horses a horse table then a storage
room at this moment
they are trying to keep some um
[Music]
um some old architect artifacts
um so like yeah storage room for
artifacts yeah
so it is true as a horse table that's
what i said this is actually what
they're using it for
there is even it's even worse in my
hometown where i come from arta
um there is an old mosque an immigrant
actually that emirate
used to be like a whole
complex the ottomans used to use used to
build emirates
within the emirates they used to have
mosques
uh places for students to live in
theological schools bhadrasas so it was
a massive complex
now there is an emirate still in artha
which
is a bit outside of the city of arta and
this emirate the only thing that remains
of the amarett is this mosque and this
mosque is in such a state that if you go
and watch it now
i have an old video from that time when
i was there which was around six years
ago
but i have i came across one video very
recent video
just some months ago of a turkish
brother who was there
it's even worse than it was that time we
went there with my children and i went
into this mosque nobody took care of it
nobody care there was everywhere even
snakes were in there
snakes that's how bad the situation was
now it's even worse
now it's even worse and nowadays at the
entrance of this mosque in arta
there is even a big uh swastika
you know yeah yeah swastikas so the
hitler's sitless cross
so what did the muslims what did they
actually do those who are following the
way of jesus moses abraham
those who submit to the creator i'm just
defining the word what do they do now
with
this sophia cathedral what do they do
with it
it's run down it's dilapidated funds are
sure what do they actually come and do
okay they reinstated its former glory in
such a way that they actually made it to
the
main it became the main uh mosque of the
the the the ottoman empire uh they
turned it back into a house of god can
you see i mean this is
they turn it into a house of god of
course can we say that
absolutely of course we can say it it
has been back it has been turned back to
the house of worship and uh the the
point here
look whatever you say we might
the truth of course it is it became
again
back a house of god house of worship but
for the greeks it's the same as if you
told them
that at that moment they started
worshiping shaitaan
do you have to say what what i want to
say with that that you might come with
the argument which is a correct argument
it's correct reasoning to say indeed it
was in a dilapidated state it wasn't a
state that
the byzantine state did not have the
money to to to
to bring it back to its former glory the
ottomans come and reinstate this
cathedral
make it a glorious mosque so for them
it's as if you said okay they made it a
glorious temple for the worship of
shaytan
you understand yeah so it's not you know
we can come with this argument which is
a correct argument but it's a correct
angle for the muslims any muslim would
say
well mashallah is a good thing but any
greek orthodox specifically and i'm
mentioning these people specifically any
orthodox
would say yeah but they started
worshiping their allah which for them
is actually on the same level like
shaytan but your
your background is greek you're also
greek absolutely i'm greek but i'm a
great muslim
i saw i'm a muslim greek rather that way
yeah okay but we also hear now that
you mentioned some really important
points i mean because some people might
smell some
hypocrisy here like what you you just
explain horse stall and other things you
know we've seen
happening with uh the the mosque and
whatnot and over here it's
it's not disrespected like that how do
people answer that or
when they smell some hypocrisy well
of course some will say i mean what is
this guy saying actually he's taking it
from the
he he's a traitor anyway i've been
called to traitor no no no i'm not
talking about you no no i'm not talking
about you i'm talking about those who
who from uh from from athens or other
places that have like
you know like for instance i'll give you
example we know that in bosnia
you have so many mosques that were
destroyed by these
ch techniques uh techniques and it's sad
to say i mean
we don't label all serbs techniques or
you know disrespect the whole serbian
nation no we don't do that uh there
but you know people come in all
different shapes sizes colors and
everything but you have those
crusaders those christians techniques
extreme radicals who are just
slaughtering and killing and raping and
whatnot
and many were destroying the mosque all
over the place
but statistically if you look at the
data the churches were safe
the churches were protected they were
preserved right
because this is what our deen this is
what islam teaches us so that's what i'm
saying someone who is
destroying all of the different mosques
and everything and now
that is the hypocrisy that people are
talking about for people to come i
understand what you're saying
now i fully understand what you're
saying no it there is no hypocrisy at
all in it because we have to look into
what has turkey although we have to be
very clear here
uh we cannot just play one side and not
look at the other side
make very clear here as muslims of
course we see that islam
teaches you not to destroy churches
teachers do not destroy synagogues in
the country actually
the kitab the people of the book the
jews and the christians have full right
to live in an islamic state
and we have proven it with our history
if you go back to alan dallas if you go
back to the balkans if you go back to
many
countries in europe you can you have
clear evidence and clear proof
that jews and christians not only lived
harmoniously
but had a golden age especially the jews
when the jews had to flee allan de los
in 1492
where did they go to to the other side
to the ottomans they went to the to
istanbul constantinople where they were
invited
to magazines at that time so they went
to the other muslim poll
and some of them went to north africa
again muslim land
so the jews knew and the ones who who
were scholarly aware of our history they
know nowadays that
just under muslims they were thriving
not under the christians not
nowhere under the christians so from
that perspective
of course we can say we have evidence
enough in our history in the islamic
history
that churches were not destroyed in case
this happened and it did happen
i'm not going to hide behind my fingers
it did happen indeed
that in certain parts of greece of the
balkans
there were some churches that got
destroyed or turned into mosques
yes this did happen however if you look
at certain there were certain towns and
villages in greece
in the north of greece for example they
were entirely 100
muslim so a church in a muslim area
doesn't make sense
just i mean logically it doesn't make
sense it doesn't
invite worshipers because there is no
worshiper so
all of them are muslims so it's logical
if you need more
if you need more mosques you either have
to build more mosques
or turn the buildings that are there
already into mosques and that's exactly
what the ottomans did
so they did not destroy churches
although there were christians there
they would not do that
there is no evidence for that and i dare
everyone i challenge anyone to come and
show me
evidence for that that never happened
but what did happen
was indeed that the ottomans did change
mosque churches into mosques
in areas where the majority was muslim
or in certain areas
what is was just muslim as it has
happened in greece
with enough evidence for that so indeed
subhanallah these people
these ottomans whatever you might accuse
them of
because we're not going to put honey
over everything but whatever they might
be accused of having done
one thing that they did not do is they
did not persecute christians
they did not persecute jews and they did
definitely not destroy
the holy places in the country this is a
this is a fact the historical fact
what you just said they didn't persecute
christians they didn't destroy
and make churches into brothels and
nightclubs horse stalls
none of this none of this absolutely
nothing okay
and we can find it throughout the world
actually throughout
in many countries i mean if i take my
own home country
if i go to certain islands in greece you
will find churches
churches being turned into nightclubs
churches
i've seen that my with my own eyes and
you will find that also in western
europe you'll find it in germany you
find it in france you'll find it in
belgium
having i mean seeing churches that are
have no worshipers basically because
they're empty
they turn turn them into nightclubs or
bars so this they do to their own
churches
so you can understand that they don't
understand that muslims
would have respect towards their own
churches when they don't have respect
for their own churches
and this is with all due respect i'm not
being in
someone who's um trying to insult
anybody or anybody's religion but
i mean nowadays i've interviewed many
people who have uh
really turned on their thinking skills
and really deduced that islam is the
truth and they come from a christian
background they
actually felt not that the church was
literally turned into a nightclub but
it was almost a nightclub with all the
band playing and the rock music and
everybody's like hey
ho and they're jumping up and down and
clapping and whistling and all that
stuff
so it was almost like a nightclub
they were having fun right though yeah
yes what do you what do you say to the
people that say look but islam
because we know that even in in battle
we often
say that as prophet muhammad the last
final minister sent to mankind said that
he sent out to his generals you're not
to harm innocent men
women children monks in their places of
worship
etc etc all these rules of engagement
and we had the preservation now that uh
christians have their houses of worship
and
how when some people object to this
because this is their place of worship
you have no right now
to go ahead and take this and turn into
a box what do you say to that
one of the rules just to mention this
quickly because you're absolutely right
when you mention the rule of war
if you look at the rules of war in islam
we are not even as muslims allowed to
cut down trees or to put
fire in a forest to put a forest and
fire we're not allowed to do that
we're not allowed we have to be careful
of killing animals
subhanallah what are we talking about
here these are this is something that
even the the the united nations human
rights agenda
is not even going that far so now with
regards to turning
um can you say before you go down i'm
sorry to cut you out
can you say that there was um the real
code of ethics for just war even before
this geneva convention
actually the geneva convention if you
look at the u.n the u.n took an example
of previous um of the previous empires
and looked into the islamic empire
looked into the medina constitution and
took a lot of the human rights
um laws from that time over to nowadays
they took it from islam they do yeah
they do admit it themselves actually
and one specific one with regards to
minority protection with regards to the
jews that time in medina
that's something that that is clearly
admitted if you can look it
up up online you will find all these
things so um so go ahead what you were
saying now to
the question yeah with regards to the
question of turning a house of worship
into a house of worship simply
a house of worship for a specific god
okay
turning it into another and a house of
worship for another type of god
you know is a little bit complicated
here because basically we believe in the
same god
even muslim if even even christian arabs
call god allah
okay christian arabs call god allah
christian a jewish jewish
you know when they speak arabic they
even call god allah
so basically we believe in the same god
the trinity something was invented later
by paul as we all know you have made
enough of these shows
now so if you look at is actually from
islamic perspective
nothing has changed the only thing that
has changed from a house of worship as
it was before
to another type of heart of worship is
the way you are praying and worship
towards god so this up and down the raku
and the sujit and everything that we
make as muslims
this is different to the way that the
christians pray and again not
even this one in ethiopia you will find
christians original christians
praying like muslims and making sujud so
subhanallah what can i say there is so
much i mean
from what as i said in the beginning
what the point of the the the greeks at
this moment is
and the orthodox people it is more a
problem
of their political status and the
the the loss of something that they
looked up at
as an object of pride it was something
like
that represented rather hellenism and
greek
greekness and being greek rather than
being orthodox or christian
it is not a point of religion it is a
political statement
and also from the side of turkey let's
be honest turkey as i said is a secular
republic
the turkish republic again just because
of the new president of course but in
general the turkish republic is a
secular republic
and what they did there was actually
it's a political statement
they're making a statement they're
saying okay listen we want islam to be
represented by this catholic cathedral
there's nothing wrong with it it's a
sovereign state turkey can do what they
want to do with their with their own
uh there's nothing wrong with it yeah so
there's some ambiguity but
we don't know but if he did
buy it this would end the argument just
say i'm just hypothetically saying if he
did
if he tech if he because the stated
within what what it was in it was you
know
a rundown at one point they turned into
a brothel
you're not respecting it etc etc he
comes in
possibly we don't know you couldn't
trace nothing some say he did
but let's say i'm just for arguments
let's say he bought it
would that be absolutely then then then
we would when we would apply the same
argument that is applying nowadays you
have israeli jews saying basically
we have bought this land so it's ours so
for the same reason you can also say
okay
well surah muhammad fatih bought this
cathedral so it's his so it belongs to
the muslims okay
yes you could of course have the same
argument why not why does it reply to
the ones
to the other but that's just
hypothetical that's just hypothetical
but 500 years is a long time now
of course was there what was going on
within those 500 years was there was
there any uproar
for the cathedral at that time that we
know
they were trying they were people that
were sending letters they were
protesting this excellent question not
one letter we know nothing of something
like that
from the moment that it was turned into
a mosque from 1453 onwards
which was not even the glorious time of
the ottoman empire the glorious time
comes still
the glorious time was between the in the
16th century and the sultan suleiman
the magnificent who was given the title
the magnificent
imagined by his arch enemy christian
europeans
he was actually by the ottomans and by
the arabs he was called kanuni
that means law giver lawmaker very
boring title nothing special
but his title amongst his arch enemies
was the magnificent
and in greek it's even a more important
title
he's called in greek or megaloprepic
that means the glorious one
even bigger than magnificent okay you
understand i mean it's very difficult
to have the exact translation but it
means something is
very special and very glorified and this
is
your arch enemy who as they say hated
them so much
i don't believe that i don't believe
there was an admiration for the ottoman
empire
definitely until until the 16th and 17th
century
and there was a time that the ottoman
empire was considered as
the the most important empire on this
planet there was a time that people
would copy them
as they would copy under around there
was the muslims in alandalus
so there was a time there was no doubt
about it that
um they did not have any interest
whatsoever in doing what people are
saying
they wanted to do they want to do now so
turning the cathedral
turning the aya sofia mosque into a
cathedral
was nowhere to be found that there was
any interest not even by the greeks
under the empire
nowhere yeah okay then what about this
state now so from 500 years it was
running as a house of worship house of
god promoting the pure monotheism
praying like jesus prayed
living the way of life of jesus not
worshiping jesus
and then it gets turned into a museum
talk to us about that now so that
happened for what
50 years 1935 from 1935 to 2020. not
calculate how much is that yeah
70 years okay yeah so for 70 years now
it was turned into a museum
right was there any objections there for
we should understand politics first of
all um the ottoman empire collapsed
in 1923 it became the turkish republic
secular turkish republic
or republic of turkey with the first
president mustafa
malata turk now this mustafa kemalata
turk
had no interest in islam he even killed
a lot of ulama and scholars
he even persecuted muslims for wearing
the fess
which is the turban basically or well
not turban it's a specific hat
that the muslim that the ottomans were
wearing that time which has nothing to
do with islam it was just an identity
thing
so he tried to get rid of anything that
would remind them
of their the glorious past of their
ottoman past islamic past
arabic was even forbidden the adhan for
a while was made in turkish
i mean what else can i say the main
language i mean what they had to learn
at school was not arabic but rather
rather french
the republic was built on the idea of
french the french law which that time
france was like
usa nowadays the united states so
it was a superpower so basically they
were copying anything
that came from europe their appearance
their dressing
their speaking everything everything was
like the europeans and they wanted to
clearly be
seen as europeans so this secular
republic
and this person who wanted turkey to go
the secular way in the european way
this person turned this
important cathedral as having become a
mosque
into a museum and
i must say it is not necessarily
something that
we should look at it as a bad thing
however the intention is very important
and just allah knows his intention
but we have to look into what this state
had become
the ottoman empire was dead didn't exist
anymore
there was a turkey a republic which was
secular
in many ways even anti-islamic i would
say the hijab was forbidden
and many things that came after it even
worse so now
this state turns the
the important masjid of the empire into
a museum
it could be a good thing because now
they're showing listen
we want both religions christianity the
orthodox religion
and islam to be basically admired
and be viewed by the tourists who come
in here and whatever it could be it's a
touristic place
great it could be cena that way but also
on the other hand
if we look at the development of turkey
as a secular state again
we see that actually that was rather a
symbolic move
away from islam in that way to say
listen
these objects of that time of the
ottoman time of our ottoman past
we have to leave them aside and behind
us we're actually now
we have turned now the page we are now a
different republic we are now different
state
we have nothing to do with islamic
ottomans and i think this is rather the
case as it was and that's why nowadays
you will find a lot of muslim voices
being happy about this turn back to a
mosque
simply because it's another symbolic and
political move again
to show that hey islam is taking over in
turkey or
muslim turks come back to the islam
although we have more than 20 to 30
percent
many statistics say about people who
actually despite
the the uh hate islam or
have a problem with with the islamic
way of life uh so this is this is gonna
be is it's a big issue in turkey at the
moment it's not something that will
disappear
so what do you what happens to the
masjid now what are they doing with it
is it specifically a house of worship a
mosque or also
uh it's a a tourist place where people
can also come in
very good point because what the way i
understood the statement of the turkish
government at the moment what they are
planning to do is once it has opened
people of any faith can come in and
still visit
this mosque okay visit the idea sophia
and still view the frescos and the
mosaics and everything as it was they
just
covered them during the time of prayer i
was i read
so the idea is the plan is to cover the
mosaics and the icons
during the time of salah and then
uncover them for everybody to come
in and still view them so even during
the time of salah as we have seen in
other mosques in istanbul i've been to
istanbul several times
if you go to sultan ahmed mosque you
will see that tourists are still allowed
to enter
and the best of all they used to pray
for entrance fee before
to go and see and visit the ige sofia
now it doesn't cost anything wait there
used to be so
for tourists before while it was a
museum you had to pay to get in
exactly now that's gone it doesn't cost
anything i mean well
that's a great deal i think if you look
at it carefully and if if it's explained
that way
i think because there's something that
by the way is not really explained if
you look at media and if you look at the
uh the the the the newspapers and the
way the
the western media they talk about
the change it's as if um
basically everybody is barred nobody can
go that just muslims can go and pray in
there and go again
but they do not describe the details and
the details you can just find out if you
look deeper into the subject
so again the turkish government keeps
the aya sofia open to anyone who wants
to go and visit it
this time without having to pay an
entrance fee and
on top of this one muslim worshipers can
go and pray
in that specific masjid so nothing has
changed from the perspective of the
non-muslims
so that they cannot come and see the
country they even save on money and a
lot of money as far as i remember
the entrance fee was quite high so they
saved on a lot of money to just see such
an icon
such an important building so nothing's
real this is a go ahead finish i'm sorry
no i said subhanallah i mean as you said
it's a great deal i find i
i don't know what more to say so really
there's just been a
a spot allocated where people can pray
like jesus prayed
exactly yes yes right absolutely yes
with no cover charge
with no cover charges and with no cover
charge
it's free now for everybody absolutely
absolutely free absolutely yeah god is
the best of planners
alhamdulillah all right so as i said
brother sorry for interrupting you again
but as i said it's important to realize
the psychology and the psyche of the
greek
and the greeks do not see the way we're
discussing it now obviously it is
absolutely true what we're saying here
of course but they will accuse you and
me
of basically being quite biased because
we as muslims look at it from islamic
perspective but it's not entirely true
if you read my statement
on my website then you will find out
that actually i looked at it from three
perspectives
i say as a greek i believe that as
a muslim i believe that and i say story
i believe that
so there are three different uh opinions
and views from my side
that i think make it quite clear that uh
what i think about that move and how how
can
you now you mention as a muslim but how
is that possible i mean you're greek
some greeks might think like well how's
that you just said you're
greek i mean you're okay you're scholar
historian
but how are you a muslim how did that
happen absolutely
well i think we know in the balkans you
know it's they're counting the
muslims they give the muslims actually
ethnicity already every muslim is a
muslim it's this
according nationality so or they call
him a turk right the
the slang as they call if you're a
muslim you're a turk
you know that by the way in the 15th
16th century
uh victorian times elizabethan times in
in the uk
up to the 18th century 19th century they
used to call anybody who becomes a
muslim turning turk
so that is not a new invention that was
something that the balkan people
invented it was something that actually
was there
it's just that they don't use it in
english anymore they don't they would
not say that understand
somebody but on the balkan peninsula
still until nowadays
if somebody becomes a muslim is in my
case as a greek
as a bulgarian as a romanian serbian
they all turn
turk so indeed that is a common
misunderstanding of islam they believe
that islam is something for the turks
and from the turks
um and this is something we are here to
educate them that that's obviously wrong
uh people can watch the story that we i
mean the interview we did with you your
highlights of how you actually ended up
coming to islam but just for those who
didn't get a chance to watch that what
was it about islam that had you actually
accept it
was the most important thing the prayer
indeed um i
used to go and as you said you can watch
the interview basically but i used to go
to a mosque in the city where i grew up
in in germany
um where we had an islamic center and i
used to go there very often on a jumoah
or an
on a normal basis and just just go up
and down just make rakans
without knowing what to say and what to
do but i had the feeling i felt
something was there subhanallah
this really i felt the presence of allah
i felt that something was there i felt
that this is the right thing to do i
felt that this was the right thing to
worship god
and this is something that opened my
heart towards islam
so the prayer was the main thing and of
course the first thing i'm going to do
when i'm in istanbul again
is going to pray in the ayah sophia and
i'm going to say allah
may translate into greek also is is
there in in your academic
research and and you're on your way to
being a historian because this is also
from your story that
when the more you looked at history not
his history
made up history you saw a lot of lies
you saw you saw a lot of distortion and
what you were brought up to believe
and then when you actually investigated
fully you
you unfolded a lot of things and this is
what also led you to islam do you
believe if people went a little
deeper and they start to really look at
history
from a holistic view and not his history
that they were also
it would also help to bridge many of
these misunderstandings and
eradicate some of this hate that would
you say it's perpetuated in some of
these classroom settings and even in
academic settings in some of these areas
in europe in the world
i don't believe it i know it yeah i
don't believe it i know it
i know we have proven evidence for that
i know many greek brothers and sisters
all over the world
and just as a matter of fact just some
days ago i spoke to a new greek sister
mashallah
she's living in liverpool and she came
over to study in
in the uk she came to study around four
years ago and she accepted islam in this
very country because she came across the
lies that she knew actually from greece
already she had the feeling
that many of these things that he she
heard from greece that this could not be
true
and when she came across muslims in the
uk and married
a pakistani psychologist mashallah she
found out
obviously that islam was not the way it
was presented in greece
so we have enough evidence all over the
world at this moment in australia
we have a massively big greek muslim
society in the community
massively big in melbourne and area so
we have at this moment
enough evidence to prove that once you
look deeper into islam
whoever you are even a serb i have a
serbian friend who became muslim some
years back
even people who are full of hatred
and you have had some of them on your
show masha'allah people who are full of
hatred
these people were ready to to to to take
you apart
check nicks in the worst meaning of the
world even these people can turn towards
islam
once they have figured out and they're
open enough and of course if allah wills
it of course
but in general you're absolutely right
we have to and i'm fighting i've been
fighting for the last
three to four years and i don't know if
you permit me to say that also
i've written a book last year actually
the islamic history of europe
and i had the chance when we met in
london to introduce it to you but
we didn't have a chance to show you a
real copy now i have a real question i'm
still waiting for the book yes
i inshallah once you send me address i
will send it to you inshallah definitely
so the the the book is now available has
been available for the last couple of
months
alhamdulillah many schools islamic
schools especially in the uk have jumped
on board
and are teaching have been teaching this
this this history for the last couple of
months and i'm proud
to say that this is my input for for for
changing
humanity and i think history can change
the world view
and the view of islam and the negative
views that people have
so i believe that education through
education we can really do
a lot of changes in each other uh just a
couple more things i
i find it ironic that some of the people
who
hate have this hate in their heart if
you look at their lineage and if you do
one of these what is it these uh dna
tests
is it true i've heard you talk about
this in some of your lectures that
when you had for instance one example i
believe you get is it
this is the son of a man
yeah and then other other of the sultans
the leaders at the time
they married they married some serbians
some greek women
uh the prince was married to two
byzantine princesses
and one of them gave them the next
coming sons
they were so so repeat that again so
sultan
and that means byzantine princesses
they're what they're greek
serbian what are they yeah greek greek
greek greek greek greek
three some but he actually saw something
go ahead
sorry one of the two gave them the next
coming sultan who was murad
and after murad all the others coming
many of them had greek mothers
sultan mehmed fatih one of their
strongest language that he had next to
turkish and arabic
was greek because his mother was greek
so
you know sultan mehmed fatih was greek
actually his mother was greek
that fatih the opener he was greek the
open of because
his mother was greek yeah okay do they
know this do the greeks know that
he was let's not say let's not put it
that way because you will have a lot of
turks coming to your channel and saying
what are you guys saying there why not
okay so his mother sultan mehmed
father's mother was greek
as many other sultan's mothers were
greek
so there is nothing wrong with it
roxelana was ruthenian she came from
russia
okay so sultan suleiman's beloved wife
roxanna who gave him again the upcoming
sultans
was russian what about serbian he had
some also some serbian
women i cannot give you the exact uh
personnel but i know that that there has
also been serbian blood in there
absolutely there is actually there is as
far as i remember if i look at the
lineage from
from organ onwards i don't really
remember under a lot of uh
turkic women who gave birth to sultans
most of them
were balkan or as i said russian
roxilana was russian
albanian and so on so there's very
little turkic blood actually it's just
from the side of the
of the man basically and that's uh
that's historically
this is accurate this is something that
people can go check up
and this shouldn't be a dividing factor
whoever wants to contact us
absolutely and because islam transcends
the nationalism i mean islam is a
universal way of life that gets rid of
the racism
and brings humanity together for the
worship of the one and only one god to
be morally upright
and to to prepare to meet your creator
no matter if you're greek white black
doesn't matter
absolutely that's a very important point
and we look at
so many movements if you look at north
america or south america for example if
you look at brothers accepting islam in
brazil for example i was just recently
uh quite actively busy with the issue of
brazil
you looked at afro afro-brazilians
come on mass to islam nowadays simply
because they have discovered that the
ancestors the
third of their of the slaves of that
time of the african slaves were actually
muslims
um and you see that absolutely islam
transcends
any any any kind of of of national
ethnic uh color borders i mean the
solution
indeed to to to racism in the world
is without a doubt the practice of islam
now now of course there are people who
would say yeah but
look at the muslim countries don't you
find arab
racist don't you fight racism also on
the arab world yes you do
i said the practice of islam and in many
arab countries and muslim countries
there is no practice of islam
okay and we have to just look into it we
have to clearly see that islam
has to be practiced fully and there you
go you can find this practice in
families
families who are mixed marriage who will
find marriages
mixed couples you will find
different colors different backgrounds
different cultures and traditions
but all being muslims what unite them is
being being muslims and being
following islam so that is a very
important point so for people to get the
correct history
where can i get this book you go into
detail and many of these
aspects of history how can people get
this
new book that you've put together very
simple it's my my website
is simply my name stephcarys.com and on
this website you will be able to go to
my shop and acquire whatever you want to
as well as we have started with online
courses recently
so we have now the online courses with
regards to islam in europe
islam in asia and africa is coming as
well in the americas
so the story in the history about um
it's a whole series of lectures
and of workshops that present you how
islam has come to europe
how islam has become a part of europe a
part of the americas a part of asia part
of this
of australia a part of the of africa so
there are different online courses which
are still coming as well as very very
soon the ottoman empire so we have a
small course
of six episodes whereas the others are
between 12 and 14
this small mini series of six episodes
about the rise of the ottoman
empire where we discuss exactly what we
have been discussing actually with
regards to the sultans
with regards to the different mothers
being having a certain background
and all this up to sultan suleiman the
magnificent
the rise basically of the ottoman empire
so whoever is interested stephcaries.com
the courses and the shops they're both
there
sheik dr steph thank you so much for
being with us
bringing us some history bringing us a
good balanced approach and helping those
who are many like many people they don't
know what's going on so we wanted to
educate them on what's uh going on with
this masjid of sophia
and hopefully they can have a better
clearer perspective and view on it now
i don't appreciate thank you yak