hello this is Dr Gerald Dirks formerly
the Reverend Gerald Dirks in just a few
moments here on the dean show we'll be
talking about my conversion to Islam
please don't go
away alhamdulillah alayum which is a
greeting of peace peace be unto you
welcome to another episode of the dean
show where we're here trying to help you
understand Islam and Muslims and when we
come back we have a very special guest
who was a former Christian minister he
has graduated
with honors from the prestigious Harvard
University with a masters in Divinity
started studying the Bible at a very
young age he has so much to share with
us today on the dean show and I'm so
excited to have him here with us so you
don't want to go nowhere we're going to
be talking to Dr Gerald Dirks when we
come back here on the dean show you
don't want to go nowhere we'll be right
back Dean
Allah there's only one God and muhamad
is his
messenger there's only one God and Jesus
was his messenger
Allah I don't know why I did that maybe
maybe it's just to break the ice
AUM how are you brother alhamdulillah
thank you so much for taking the time
out of your busy schedule to come and
visit us here at the Deans it's my
pleasure brother we uh have got to uh
mention a few things about you uh you
were actually a former Minister a deacon
ordained Deacon in the United Methodist
Church and you have a master's degree in
Divinity from Harvard University from
har Divinity School correct wow this is
uh and and the list goes on you uh were
a uh preacher at many starting at a
young age you worked as a youth Minister
ordained minister and the list goes on
you've we have some books also here that
you have uh authored yes we're going to
uh mention few of the books here you
have uh the Abraham the friend of God
which uh is this book here well that's
actually the abrahamic faith the
abrahamic faiths you have uh easy to
understand Islam
it's another book here you have uh
Muslims in America the history yeah and
you have uh
letters to my elders in Islam yes you
have understanding
Islam now you've wrot written a lot of
books on Islam and the crescent and the
cross yeah the cross and the Crescent
yes you like the right
huh so these are some of your books that
you've authored you you're obviously uh
very busy writing books you you you uh
are out there uh trying to now uh uh
mend the bridges uh build the bridges to
help develop a better understanding
between Islam uh the Muslims and people
of other faiths but we want to hear
about your story we want to know why
would someone who was so high up in the
ranks who had so much knowledge of
Christianity you know the Bible well
what happened let's talk from your we'll
get a little bit of a history from a
young age
talk to us tell us how you uh got
involved in in Christianity and your
parents and Etc sure actually there's
probably four parts to the story yes and
the first part would be sort of my
journey into the Christian Ministry yeah
the second part would be my leaving the
ministry MH third part would be my years
as what I called an atypical Christian
yeah and then finally the fourth part my
journey into Islam but you ask about the
first part which is my sort of Journey
to the Christian Ministry yeah I grew up
in a small rural community in Kansas
where the church was the center of
community life uh it was a small town of
about 500 people we had three churches
uh every summer there were uh ice cream
socials at the Churches Chicken Pot Pie
dinners corn roasts Etc and the churches
really were the center of community life
and that was true for my family as well
MH we attended the local Methodist
Church and uh throughout my childhood uh
I was very actively involved in
collecting my perfect attendance pens
from Sunday school my awards for
memorizing Biblical verses
Etc and so by the time I reached Junior
High School uh I was already considering
the ministry as a personal calling and
about that time uh during the annual
youth Sunday uh I was always selected to
deliver the sermon and word of that got
around and before long I was preaching
at various other local churches upon
occasion at nursing homes at various
Church Affiliated organizations Etc how
old was this at uh I was probably uh
about uh 14 when this started very young
age yeah uh and so I continued in that
direction and at age 17 I entered
Harvard College as an undergraduate uate
uh with a philosophy uh major which was
gearing towards Seminary mhm and uh
continued on in that direction in
1970 U actually
1969 I received my license to preach
from the United Methodist Church in 1971
graduated uh as an undergraduate and
entered uh Harvard Divinity School which
is a three-year program leading to a
degree in uh master of divinity in 1972
I was ordained a deacon in the United
Methodist Church and in
1974 uh I graduated with a master of
divinity from uh uh Harvard Divinity
School spent that summer as an interim
minister in two rural parishes in Kansas
but in the fall of
1974 I left the ministry or at least
left the parish Ministry I was still an
ordained minister but uh never again
would I fill a Pulpit after the fall of
1974 which probably brings us to the
second part of the story if you want to
move in that direction yeah tell us what
will you go into that why did you end up
I mean you were filling the pulpits I
mean did you have like a big crowd
people would be excited to come listen
to you preach and did you guys have a
band how did that work to describe this
this
atmosphere oh well at the risk of
sounding immodest yeah uh typically
everywhere I I preached we set
attendance records you were like a Jimmy
Swagger at the
time please don't do that of of your
community maybe a Joe Olstein of of the
the small little town or well I I I
don't want to do do comparisons but yeah
suffice it to say uh attendant typically
skyrocketed oh nice when when uh I was
behind the pulpit so people knew who you
were yes they wanted you they wanted a
ticket to get into this uh uh Church to
see and to hear what you had to say
because you had knowledge you were a man
of knowledge uh amongst other things
yeah okay so talk to us now from filling
the pulpits people lined up wanting to
hear what you had to say from preaching
the Bible what now led you to leave the
pulpit well when people ask me mhm I I
usually say there's a long story and a
short story yes the short story is a
good Seminary education the long story
takes a little longer MH but basically
it's one of the ironies of life that the
churches often take the uh most
promising of their young ministers and
they send them to really good
seminaries and in those really good
seminaries such as the one I was
fortunate enough to attend you are
systematically exposed to the oldest
existing texts of how the Bible actually
once read you're exposed to the changes
that were made in those texts when those
changes took place why those changes
took place where those changes took
place um so once you receive that
knowledge and those changes by the way
raise serious serious questions about
such fundamental Christian doctrines is
the
Trinity the sunship of Jesus Christ
peace be upon him
uh the crucifixion event and the
doctrine of atonement in the blood all
of these come into serious question when
you look at the oldest manuscripts that
we have of what the Bible once said so
that was one consideration the other
consideration is that you are also given
a very good grounding in the history of
the early church now this is Seminary
school yes is this when when when does
now Seminary School come is that that's
after Harvard now well first you do the
undergraduate I did four years
undergraduate at Harvard okay received
my ba yes and then entered Harvard
Divinity School which is a seminary yes
and that's a three-year course of
studies leading to a master of divinity
okay gotcha so the second thing you're
exposed to is the actual history of the
early Christian church and in terms of
that you're you're exposed to the
decidedly geopolitical mination s that
really went into defining some of the
fundamental doctrines and dogmas of
Christianity and notice I said
geopolitical minations not theological
considerations not religious
considerations but political
considerations that went in you're also
exposed to the tremendous breadth of
knowledge the tremendous breadth of
opinion that existed within early
Christianity you know it was not
monolithic this is this like kind of
like the Christian
Fick
well suffice it to say there were many
different branches yeah to early
Christianity now the branch that
survived basically into modern times was
Pauline Christianity MH uh this was the
Christianity that developed out of the
teachings of Paul or or Saul of Tarsus
this is what's mainstream today yes
basically yeah but there were many other
branches to early Christianity some of
which survived for centuries before they
eventually died out and one of the
fundamental distinctions that uh we can
make is between Pauline Christianity
which was the Christianity that Paul
took to the Gentiles and the non-jews
principally in Europe but also to a
certain extent in Asia Minor and we can
contrast that with What's called the
Jerusalem Church now this was the actual
Disciples of Jesus Jesus yes and how
they practiced and what they believed
and there were decided differences
between these two groups but over time
because of geopolitical
considerations the different branches of
Christianity were sort of systematically
eliminated one by one and when that was
done uh
unfortunately that was done often at the
expense of
destroying uh books that were once
considered Ed scripture by some of these
branches of Christianity so a lot of
knowledge was lost in the destruction of
these books but these are the the two
fundamental
reasons uh why I left the Christian
Ministry it really boiled down to an
issue of personal
Integrity you know how could I stand
behind the pulpit on Sunday morning and
preach a sermon that I knew was at
variance with the actual Tap Root of
Christianity of course if I stood behind
the pulpit on Sunday morning and
preached what I had been taught in
seminary I'd be looking for a new job
within a week yeah so this conflict
existed and as a result uh to preserve
my personal Integrity I left the active
Ministry and pursued graduate school in
Clinical Psychology and by the way
approximately half of my graduating
class from Harvard Divinity School
walked away from the parish Ministry
upon graduation so I wasn't the only one
is this kind of like the have you heard
of Bart arum yes yes kind of people also
who have gotten engrossed and really
started to go deeper into studying the
original text and many of them they come
to the conclusion that you have that you
know a lot of this uh is not making
sense it doesn't fit sure sure and and
uh you know the uh biblical scholar you
mentioned is a good example of that but
there are many others as well uh can you
can you name a few that some people who
are out there the academics who they
recognize these people these names uh
well B IR is certainly one uh but it's
really almost any good biblical scholar
knows I mean all you have to do is pick
up a good Bible commentary yeah such as
the interpreter's Bible commentary and
begin reading it yeah and you'll be
exposed in the process to wait a minute
this text originally read this way and
this was inserted into the text around
the year 380 in Spain this sort of
information is there it's available to
the public but they have to really go
out and study in order to find it that's
the thing how many actually want to take
the time to investigate instead of just
blindly going along with what everyone
else is going along with yeah and it
does take a great deal of time yeah to
try and do it on your own uhhuh tell us
did you feel now before we move forward
with the story did you feel before you
were engrossed with all all this new
knowledge that you were impervious to
someone else coming in with other
beliefs views opinions were you really
staunch in your belief that it was
unshakable before you got all this new
knowledge sure I I mean I had believed
what I had been taught in church in
Sunday school probably just like
everyone else believes what they're
taught in church in Sunday school um and
so it is it's it's a real shock when all
of a sudden you're confronted with a
text uh uh that says
um you know in these verses of the Bible
uh if you look at the original text it
raises real questions as to whether or
not Jesus was actually crucified yeah um
so that that's a shock tell us also who
were you emula who did you feel you we
all are emulating somebody we have role
models who were you before emulating who
were you trying to were you trying to be
like Jesus were you trying to be like a
certain Pastor a preacher
well there there are certainly ministers
who had an influence on me um and
ministers to to whom I I looked up and
and
admired uh certainly the role model of
of Jesus uh peace be upon him as is
presented in in the four gospels of the
Bible is a very powerful and very
positive role model yeah uh so that was
always there as well yeah tell us now
this is very interesting it's intriguing
I'm sure people's ears are glued to the
screen there's one thing I just wanted
to to uh have you comment on because we
want this those sincere and honest
people who are really wanting to know
the truth we want them to be able to
understand this but there are some
people who sometimes they just can't get
past certain things and they're looking
at your
beard we want them to get past the beard
tell us about the beard for a second
well the beard for me is simply
following the example uh of prophet
Muhammad uh who advised us uh in a
Hadith or in one of his sayings that
that we shouldn't trim the beard that we
should let the beard grow so um with
that advice from the prophet peace be
upon him uh I let my beard grow didn't
Jesus have a beard well we assume so
didn't Moses have a beard well we assume
so beards beards were uh fashion at that
time at that part of the world yeah
Fashions changed for people but for what
God has ordained through his Messengers
and the teachers they were the ones that
we should be emulating isn't it yes that
that is what remains stable so this is
just a pi example of somebody trying to
emulate the best of human beings these
prophets yes would you say okay so I
hope that one person or two they got
past the beer now tell
us did you believe earnestly with full
conviction that the Bible was the word
of God Almighty before again you got
engrossed in all this new
knowledge well I I think we have to
Define what's meant by the word of God
because there there's two main beliefs
that run throughout Christianity if if
you look at different Christians there's
one group of Christians primarily those
uh who call themselves fundamentalists
or or the far wi of the Christian right
who believe that the Bible is word for
word the literal words of God but
there's a second group of Christians
typically you find them amongst Mainline
Protestants and Roman Catholics ET Etc
who say well the Bible was inspired by
God but it was funneled through human
beings and so their personal historical
context Etc we have to take that into
account but the basic message the
inspiration is from God even though we
can't take things literally word for
word MH so you believe this actually yes
yes okay and now did your obviously
belief change once you finish Seminary
school oh absolutely what did you think
then well again when you're when you're
confronted with the variances and what
the original text said and what the
Bible says now as you read it uh as I
said before that that's a shocking
experience um and it causes one to
question MH you know what else is here
that has been changed where I don't have
the original text anymore so I don't
know that this change has taken place
yeah you know it's we know what we know
but how many other places there may have
been changes we don't know now did you
lose a lot now we're going to get into
it and again people want to know the big
question why why did you accept Islam
why did you come to be a Muslim we're
going to get to that we just want to
lead to that did you ever get people who
came to you with a confused look on
their face about this Trinity wanting to
know a little more
adamantly how they could make this fit
God being obviously three in one is that
correct father son and the goals but not
three but one and somebody just came to
you and said uh Pastor uh did they call
you uh what was the tipe they call you
pastor pastor rever Pastor Dirks can you
please explain to me I can't figure this
out who do I pray to do I pray to the
Father the Son the Holy Ghost did you
have these experiences not that often
and and the reason for that again is you
know people are taught in Sunday school
they're taught in church from a very
early age you know God is three persons
in one
substance that's the traditional
Protestant and Roman Catholic
formulation of the Trinity uh some of
the Eastern churches say three
substances in one Essence yes but this
becomes a catchphrase three persons in
one substance M you don't think about it
you don't question it it it's just sort
of an automatic response if you asked
about the Trinity you say oh three
persons in one substance three persons
being the Father the Son and the Holy
Ghost and so people tend to accept this
because it was ingrained at a very early
age mhm they tend not to question it or
say now wait a minute exactly what does
that
mean um and when people do those few who
do typically they find that they can't
make any sense out of it mhm uh in fact
athanasius who was in many ways the
father of the the doctrine of the
Trinity is reported to have said uh very
late in life as he was dying that the
more he thought about the notion of the
Trinity the less sense it made to it MH
so this this is a very confusing issue
and I think most Christians typically
avoid it yes they just fall back on that
early learning of saying three persons
in one substance and if there's any
questioning that goes beyond that the
response is well that's one of the
Divine Mysteries what about the egg
shell the Yol
or the water and it being three
components one part have you gotten this
oh the sort of thing about um compare
the Trinity to uh uh H2O which can be
steam water or ice MH yeah I I've gotten
that the interesting thing is that's
actually officially a heresy in uh
traditional Christian
thought um because you're you're denying
the three persons
mhm yeah most Christians who try to
Grapple their way to some understanding
of the Trinity they goes beyond simply
saying three persons and one substance
without realizing it often drift off
into what the church has already
condemned as heresy in terms of their
understanding of the Trinity yeah wow
this amazing we are almost out of time
for this session we're going to have to
do a part two we let's get a few more
questions in again we're excited and we
want to know like what led up to finally
accepting Islam but we want to dig a
little more to find out some of the
things the unique experiences that you
that you had did you used to sing No I
you see a lot of singing going on
terrible sense of pitch okay now tell us
uh what did you believe now you found
these things you went from believing
that this the Bible which you were uh
brought up reading studying learning was
the word of God correct and now you go
through this now what did you believe
did you believe that there was still
some of the word of God in it and it was
uh man's uh uh adding deleting yeah
certain certainly I believe there there
was divine inspiration in the Bible and
places yeah I also realized that there
were Corruptions in the Bible and places
I believe very strongly that there was
God yes and only one God uh but I had no
belief in the Divinity of Jesus Christ
peace be upon him I had no belief in uh
the doctrine of the Trinity I had had
serious questions about the crucifixion
event so I was uh basically from the
time I left the active Ministry in
1974 until I became a Muslim many years
later what I called an atypical
Christian what's atypical Christian well
for me atypical Christian is someone who
doesn't believe in the Divinity of Jesus
who rejects the notion of the Trinity
but still maintains a deep and abiding
belief in God and who
uh you know picks up the Bible reads it
for the good moral instruction that is
found in it in many places um and
continues to study uh the Bible uh
continues for example for me going down
to the local Seminary and haunting the
bookstore and purchasing new books on
recent archaeological finds having to do
with various texts of the Bible Etc did
you find yourself getting in some
dialogues with other people who believe
staunchly that no no no Jesus Is God
that he is the Son of God also and that
he died for your sins since obviously
now you didn't you had the antithesis of
this you would believe something
opposite to it did you have some
conflict here with other peers or
members of your uh congregation or
friends or well no no real conflict in
fact I didn't attend church uh very much
at all this is later on now that you
learned once I left the ministry you
know a few times a year that would be it
primarily because I thought it was an
important family function to do MH uh
but typically I would go I would listen
to a sermon I would grit my teeth as I
heard things I knew were not true give
us an example give us an example well
um the Trinity yes for example or the
Divinity of Jesus peace be upon him uh
or or some of the statements that were
made about the crucifixion or the
doctrine of the atonement in the blood
you're sitting there just like how can
they preach this this exactly exactly
this is amazing well what it is a lot of
ministers yeah uh rationalize uhhuh and
they say I know what I mean when I say
the Son of God uhhuh and I understand it
this way in sort of a metaphorical way
or I understand it as I believe the
actual disciples understood that term or
as it was understood in first century
Palestine
however their congregation probably
doesn't yeah understand it that way when
that phrase is said did you feel like
this also went against your very nature
this inherent nature that God put in all
of us to recognize the truth did you
feel that something inside you said no
sure yeah and do you feel like a lot of
people that they that you know you said
a typical Christian I've come across and
these are our brothers in in humanity
yes and we are to be the kindness to
them and we are to share this way of
life that we believe that all the
messengers of God they lived which was
surrender and submission obedience
sincerity and in peace which is
something of one word Islam to share
with them we don't have to prze and you
know try to twist their hearts to accept
it but if they want to hey it's there
for you sure it's a way of life that God
has ordained for everybody take it if
not you can at least understand us and
we can be brothers working together for
some kind of good now tell us before we
got like 2 minutes and we're going to
have to do a part two this is so
exciting tell us
now did
you feel that you now because a lot of
these people you said
atypical I'll come across people like I
was saying that they are Christian but
they don't believe Jesus Is God other
people believe that he's Son of God not
God there's some confusion here did you
at any time feel like you know what uh
confused now lost what do I do where do
I go from here well I think there are a
lot of atypical CH out there actually M
um probably more among the ordained
clergy than among the Ley because the
ordained clergy has been exposed
typically yeah to at least some of this
information MH in fact there was a study
done by uh psychology Today magazine
back in the early 1970s I think it was
where they listed what they considered
to be 10 fundamental beliefs of
Christianity and they went out and
surveyed the Christian Le and found that
on the average Christian Le believed in
about seven I think it was of these 10
yeah when they surveyed the ordained
Ministry they found they believed in
about four uhhuh of the 10 so you can
see the discrepancy this is not odd
isn't it that uh I don't know maybe in
the 70s or 80s that the Anglican Bishops
they had come to a unanimous decision
that you didn't to be a Christian you
didn't have to believe that Jesus was
God also well I'm I'm not going to speak
for the Anglican Bishops CU this is
something that that I came across so
it's not something odd that people they
also go with what's in their nature and
they reject this belief that a man can
be God that Jesus was God Etc yeah
that's true of a lot of people who who I
would say are atypical Christians yeah
we are out of time we will inshallah
continue next week doing part two
because we didn't answer how you stumble
how you accepted submission and
surrender to the one God nothing in
creation but to the Creator who made the
Sun the moon who created Jesus who Jesus
prayed to actually didn't he yes okay we
can do the part two yes inshallah I'm
excited and I'm sure you're excited also
thank you J to my brother and Ja thank
you so much for being with us I know
you're excited but you know what we got
to take a time out we've come and run
out of time but next week we're going to
continue on and we're going to answer
this question why Islam you got to hear
a little bit about the past about Dr uh
Dirks um going through Harvard
University going through the Seminary
and being on the pulpit filling the
crowds with preaching the Bible but now
he's a Muslim and you want to know why
and we're going to bring you his story
inshallah God willing thank you we'll
see you next week here on the de show
until then asalam alayum peace be unto
you
[Music]
in
[Music]
it's C it's
lame everybody sleeping
I
arise and ask a lot of forgive me oh
Allah you
see oh Allah you
know all the sins I
do I turn to you to forgive my sins and
my
[Music]
heart I'm your sinful
slave you're my love and Lord
I'm the one who runs
away oh Allah guide me