this is the dean
the alhamdulillah alayum greetings and
peace welcome to the dean show every
Friday we got a new exciting episode
this week is no exception subscribe if
you haven't already my next guest has a
very inspiring motivating story and
that's what these stories are meant to
do to inspire you to motivate you to
really reflect and to think what's the
purpose of life why am I here he went
through a whole journey now he's here H
The Deen Show to share his wonderful
star I give you some highlights came
from a Catholic background then he just
got irritated with religion most people
you know when you're just wanting to do
your own thing you want to be on at the
clubs on the weekends you want to just
be partying you want to be playing and
maybe it's not even all that you just
you don't want no restrictions you feel
like religion is just holding me back so
then you just end up denying God
altogether and that's the second phase
of his story he became a an atheist and
then something else happened he he
wasn't able he was able to get rid of
Santa Claus and the fairy tale all the
fairy tales from his mind but he
realized this wasn't a fairy tale the
belief in the crater is something
inherent and it kept knocking knocking
knocking on his door and he ended up
coming back and I'm I don't want to give
too much away but it's a very unique and
wonderful story we'll be right back with
it here on the dean show enjoy this is
the
the this is the
this is the this is
the this is
thean
thean welcome back to the dean show and
we have our
brother Ali andal Lucia how are you my
brother alhamdulillah how are you good
alhamdulillah now you we were just uh
before uh uh we started you were
actually talking to me about uh we we
met up once in uh Chicago so you were
you were raised in in the United States
uh were you are you actually what city
are you from in Chicago uh in in the
states in the states well actually I was
born in in Florida Florida yeah it was
uh because my parents had migrated uh
from uh Puerto Rico to New York and then
to Florida I was born there and then we
kind of moved around after that and uh I
was raised in the South and a lot also
in Chicago as well now before all that
happened now you I mean before you
actually took this trip you're we're not
going to reveal where you're at right
now you're actually studying you you've
um you took a diff a different direction
in life you figure out the purpose of
life you know uh tell us a little bit
about your Beginnings you're born in the
US we covered that uh Catholic Family uh
but uh Catholic upbringing but really no
interest in religion and you hear a lot
of that can you explain
that yeah um you know
when my family migrated to the US um of
course they were culturally Catholics uh
raised Catholic Etc but
um living sort of secular lifestyle you
know this is a moral Hobby and though
these are these are cultural things that
are engrained in them and they want to
sort of instill in the Next Generation
they didn't really take them as
seriously as you know theologically in a
serious manner it was mostly just about
uh cultural identity
um so it was in that sort of context
that I was raised you know going to
church on Sunday was more of a a
pronouncement of one's attachment to
culture to the Spanish culture to to
being Spanish it wasn't I mean they
didn't teach us really about Jesus or
anything like that um to any great
extent and
so it was like mostly a social Hobby in
that respect or a cultural identifier um
so I was never really attached to it I
been God but it it wasn't something that
was as a motivator of my life or or
goals in life or path in life um so you
know when I became a teenager I was very
rebellious and uh I decided to go
against that sort of that sort of
cultural
identification um that that that thing
that I saw as merely a hobby and I uh I
went through sort of a phase of atheism
I don't really consider it a serious
phase of atheism it was more like you
know teenage angst phase of atheism mhm
uh so there there wasn't much uh
intellectual Merit to it but I would say
was primarily non religious for for most
of my early
life now you also mentioned that uh you
were kind of um you grew up irritated
you know with this irritation towards
religion can you talk a little bit about
that I found irritating because uh sorry
I found it irritating because you know
living especially in the United States
being inculcated with sort of a secular
lifestyle secular understanding of the
world you know there are a lot of
negative Ms about religion and I felt
that it had uh not just sort
of a lot of negativity attached to
historically speaking and intellectually
speaking but also in terms of just how I
live my daily life you know uh living in
a secular society you know
religion to have religion control you
it is is something uh is seen as like a
form of imprisonment you know something
that restricts your freedoms it's
nothing it's not seen in a positive
light so I did find it irritating in
that respect and I think like many
people who Liv in the secular World find
religion irritating for controlling the
way that they they do things yeah so
yeah I mean I would say that was my
irritation and then you you you went you
had your atheism phase you know we see
that a lot people end up leaving the
religion that they're born in and they
they they end up just uh uh would you
say you have this kind of this kind of
guilt you're the Creator's put in us all
of this this conscious that's that's
kind of you know this moral compass but
now you want to get rid of that too so
you just kind of just deny God Al
together so you can just kind of do
whatever you want so you don't have to
worry about this yeah I mean I think
that that is one of the main
psychological reasons uh that a lot of
Youth uh move away from God because in a
way it's sort of seen as the last
obstacle towards their their
self-identification their their freedom
their ability to Define themselves you
know in in the world that they are
confused about um so it is seen as the
ultimate form of Freedom um so this is
sort of n's Viewpoint as well when when
he mentioned the death of God you he
wasn't saying literal in a literal sense
he was he was saying that in a in a way
of liberating
Humanity um so in a way he was sort of
tapping into to that Natural Instinct of
the youth to want to seek ultimate
Freedom so God is sort of seen as their
last parent you know that they have to
kind of uh rebel against and getting rid
of him getting rid of God helps them to
to make sense of of that that desire of
that ultimate freedom and in a way you
know I just sort of went down the same
path uh but I would say in many ways and
Not Looking Back Now um that it was very
superficial it was mainly based on
emotions and and sort of just you know
the the trend of a secular societies
that I was living in yeah uh we we see
that today that tens of thousands of
people in the US commit suicide yearly
it's the second according to the CDC
it's the second leading cause of death
suicide for ages between 10 and
24 and you were no exception to that you
tried all these things now you're going
down a path of a atheism and you started
getting really depressed that you almost
you were contemplating
suicide uh yes and there were a lot of
other life events that occurred during
that time as well as you become uh the
Arbiter of your own morality you make a
lot of bad mistakes know um you you when
you when you consider yourself God in a
way then you because of your lack of
knowledge and understanding about the
world you make a lot of foolish mistakes
and it led me down a path of
meaninglessness and purpose
purposelessness and contemplating
suicide was
not um uncommon even I think among many
many of my peers around me I mean it's a
very common thing especially with the
youth as you mentioned um so yeah that
atheism sort of didn't help in that
respect I think it it it really did not
help that I didn't have this grounding
and uh it helped to rationalize those
feelings
further and uh eventually I did actually
attempt uh to to take my own life uh
although
unsuccessfully alhamdulillah
alhamdulillah one of the good failures
of my life I would say um so Allah
preserved me from that fate um but it
was after that that I kind of woke up
because when you try to take your own
life and you're almost successful uh
your world sort of flips upside down m i
mean people I'm sure many people can
identify with with uh already what
you're going through you have a lot of
traumas that people are going through in
life from many of the challenges and
people are looking for different answers
and you you ended up leaving religion
going towards atheism again things are
not getting better but you actually come
end up coming back to religion now what
happens here well I think that this sort
of traumatic episode helped me to look
at the world that I was living in look
at my own life see a lot of people they
I just want to mention this quickly
before I go on a lot of people have this
notion that uh traumatic experiences
tend to lead people superficially to
accept religion again yeah I I would
disagree with that um what a traumatic
experience does is it it puts your brain
in reset mode so it's like when your
computer's overloaded you have to
restart mhm and everything gets a fresh
you know fresh beginning and you get to
see everything for what it really is I
like it's a nice example yeah well
that's what that's really what it's what
it's actually about so I don't like it
how you know today in mainstream culture
they sort of make fun of people or look
down on people who have had these
experiences and oh they're only
religious because of emotions but that's
that's not the case um that experience
that I had you know almost taking my own
life and going through this this
horrible phase
allowed me to finally realize or to look
around you know this the context in
which I was living and to actually
question what was going on see I was so
obsessed with the present moment the
what was going on these little emotions
that I kept having kept piling up I was
only seeing that within the small bubble
but then the bubble
popped and then all of a sudden I could
actually breathe I could actually think
and so yes this did lead me back
to seeking a higher purpose seeking a
higher um a higher you know a better way
of life and I eventually actually went
back to Christianity in a more sincere
fashion um and uh before getting into
the religious aspects I would say that
also this whole notion of belief in God
even though I was I considered myself an
atheist it didn't really ever go away it
was always sort of there yeah you know
it sort of a natural tendency that I
mean I could never shake
it um you know I I would try I would try
to rationalize it away I would try to
argue it away I would try to tell myself
it's not there but unlike you know
something like Santa Claus you know I
couldn't do that I couldn't it was easy
to get rid of Santa Claus you know that
didn't make any sense but God was always
there even when I didn't want him to be
um so it was actually quite easy to make
that transition back to religion because
I never really you don't ever really
lose the feeling you're always just
fighting against it yeah I like like
that you're always you don't lose that
feeling you're always fighting against
it we're going to be right back with
more of this wonderful interview here
with Ali don't go anywhere right back
you want to be here every Friday and
then we'll try to give you some short
reminders in between but you can't get
that if you're not coming back to the
show every week Fridays we'll be
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subscribe right now and enjoy all of the
content that we're going to be putting
out for you thank you peace be with you
asalam Alam alaikum back here on the
Dean show with our brother let's give it
away you're all the way in Malaysia is
that right I in Malaysia I'm on the
other side of the world so we're going
to get to why you're in Malaysia in a
few now there was a study Oxford
University I believe they did a study
with
57 researchers uh 57 20 different
studies I believe and they had concluded
that that belief like you were just
saying belief in the almighty in the
Creator is something that's that's
naturally built into all of us and to
disbelieve is something that you it's
acquired you have to fight
hard to accomplish and and this is a
testimony to that even though you went
you had your phase of atheism you came
back to religion you got rid of Santa
Claus because that's but uh do you see a
lot of people H how do you how do you
argue when people they they try to put
the Creator God Almighty Allah into this
category of Santa Claus toot fairy and
and now just the same way you you're
you're brought up to believe in all
these fairy tales this the same thing
God is just a fairy tale what do you say
to
that oh uh well read to philosophy uh
and what we call this is a category
error in philosophy and category errors
are conducted when people make false
analogies um so wrongful analogies
between things so for instance Santa
Claus is very much a fairy tale because
Santa Claus um uh can be verified
empirically what we mean by this is that
you can actually experience the
qualities that Santa Claus would
actually have to would have so for
instance you're talking about a big fat
guy wearing a red suit riding around a
reindeer that's something that should be
visual to every human being on the
planet um and uh whereas with God we're
talking about attributes that are
outside of the Physical Realm so when
you make this comparison like oh God is
the same as s Santa Claus because they
don't have any empirical evidence well
first off Santa Claus is supposed to
have empirical evidence because Santa
Claus is something that should be able
to be empirically verified same thing
like fairies and The Lochness Monster
and Bigfoot and things like this they
all have physical qualities M but the
concept of God is beyond all physical
aspects so to compare them is unfair and
it's actually
illogical yeah makes sense good example
tell us now Ali you come back to
religion and now you're on a quest for
true
Christianity can you expound on that
that was Adventure um I came back to
Christianity I I sort of didn't go I
didn't really go near the Catholic
church anymore because I had sort of a
bad experience with that and I felt it
was too ritualistic and repetitious in
in many ways so I wanted something more
intellectual so I I I became a
Protestant uh Christian I started
following um philosophically learned
Christians like you know William Lan
Craig and others Elvin PLO Etc um and uh
I eventually um during this time I
decided to go to college because prior
to that I didn't want to go to college
actually I was uh we have somewhat of a
similar background I think you're more
active in this realm now than myself
since my injury but uh I did do some
professional fighting uh for a few years
and I actually wanted to go uh further
and make a career out of it but I got
hurt which is one of the things that
sort of pro Ed me also to have these
suicidal feelings uh cuz my whole career
path had basically been destroyed so um
after of course this traumatic
experience I eventually um decided to
sit down and and plan out my life and I
I decided to go to college finally so I
started a little late around 20 um and
um I decided to do philosophy because my
idol at the time was Bruce Lee and he
did philosophy ra major so I thought no
why not I'll do that too so um I got
into philosophy and I started to um as
for my undergraduate degree and I
started to uh to study Christianity at a
very intellectual
level um and as a result of that uh I
started to study about Chan history and
things like this and I start from moving
from church to church when I realized a
lot of these doctrines were very
confusing and coherent or in general
they just did not match the Christian
historical record
and uh a few years went down the line
and then I uh eventually ended up in the
Orthodox
Church uh thinking them to be as as
close to the truth as possibly could be
in a Christian
understanding you were really looking
for authenticity I mean you can see here
you're you're like going uh you went
into a non uh did we get to non-dom
denominational that would be the
Protestant area Okay so that's the
that's the Protestant area now you're
looking for authenticity and you said
they were the closest to uh the true
Christianity Greek Orthodox yeah
historically speaking and even their
doctrines many of their doctrines aside
from the Trinity are actually very close
to Islam uh so for instance they don't
believe in original
sin uh they don't believe that Mary was
the mother of God for instance uh they
don't they don't give these titles they
don't go down that path they also don't
have a pope um they they they have a
much more inclusive sense theological
sense more Universal theological sense
than than the Catholic tradition in a
way then it for me they were more
grounded in historical realities of
Christianity in the past but there were
still some problems like for instance I
mentioned the Trinity that still
bothered me significantly you mentioned
that that you felt that was like forced
on the the the forced on Christian that
this what do what do you mean by that I
it was very forced because nothing with
in the scriptures or the historical
record
indicated any sort of mention of a
trinity it felt more like a theory that
was imposed upon the tradition to
explain uh a
confusion with certain scriptures or
with certain things that certain early
PCH were saying um and I tackled with
this deeply for a very long time
philosophically and both historically
even many of the Christians in the past
you can find that were unitarians that
didn't believe in in Trinity there was
big aragan heresy and things like this
I'm sure some of guess in pass have come
over um and so it it just did not sit
well and and there was also a massive
philosophical problem with its own
theology that I could not that I just
could not reconcile and eventually
helped me to Lead Me Away from
Christianity alt
together so what what what advice do you
have for people who are also struggling
with this I mean it's it's in our nature
to believe in God when you say one God
that makes sense that you only worship
this one Creator the one God and now the
Trinity people they get confused but
then you know it's something that that's
you know preached it's taught and you
feel like the odd one out but you also
people can relate to this because you
were Christian you went through this and
you actually went deep into the text
looking for authenticity so for someone
who's struggling with the same thing
what advice do you give
them well first off I I would like to
First sort of help them to understand
what that confusion is uh my confusion
was that you're saying that there was
one God who is three persons in one
substance now first off
this may make sense from a very high
philosophical position like meaning if
you've studied the books in depth you
look into like neop platonistic uh
Theology and things like this you can
somewhat understand what's going on and
why they would say these things but in
reality you know my first contention was
that it should not be this complex there
shouldn't be it shouldn't be this
convoluted that explaining Oneness
should be this confusing or have to
require this much study to understand
and then the second problem was that it
seemed as though the whole person of
Jesus
Isa
uh did not fit well within this
construct within this threepers
Trinity so how so okay well in Christian
tradition and all Christians know this
God is also considered immutable meaning
he cannot change at all there's no
change you cannot change God God is the
same from
from the beginning to the end Alpha
Omega the problem is when it comes into
the
sacrifice if Jesus was really sacrificed
meaning that he actually died meaning
like dead like
non-existent that means within that 3day
period before the
resurrection God was two mhm not three
yeah for the sacrifice to have any real
meaning that is I mean you have you have
Christians saying oh it's just symbolic
but that of course then that just
destroys the whole theology to begin
with yeah so if he actually died that
means that the whole con the whole
understanding of God is being unchanging
perfect without limitations completely
collapses and I have not found one
Theologian in the Christian tradition or
even contemporarily that can solve this
issue in fact usually they just sort of
ignore it and just say it's a mystery
yeah um so my advice would be that if
it's confusing you it's not you that's
the problem it's probably the theology
because if one if the concept of one is
turning into quantum physics then
there's a problem
yeah yeah that that's deep uh we're
going to leave you with that to to mull
over that think about that and we'll
right back with more inshallah God
willing with the rest of this interview
with our brother
Ali word can't have defects in it can
it if it is literally God's word yes it
cannot have defects
I mean this was written by men we know
that this is a collection right even if
you have Matthew Mark Luke and John The
Gospel According to according to right
um the thing about the Quran and the
biggest and and you know I'll leave you
with this is the biggest thing for me is
if the Quran is exactly what it says it
is and this doesn't matter whether
you're Muslim or not if the Quran is
what it says it is the Quran is
literally the word of God delivered via
Gabriel to Muhammad who was an
unlettered man who couldn't read or
right right and he was just told to
recite right that was the first thing
right first thing he was told recite
right um so if it is literally the word
of God then that's pretty important to
me and and before I became Muslim I said
if this is the word of
God then I'm going to follow it because
that' be stupid not
to and thank you guys that's all we have
for today I want you back here next week
same time subscribe right now so you can
get the show when it comes out delivered
directly to you I'm really enjoying
talking to Ali we kind of went over the
time so we have to cut this up into two
segments we're going to go ahead and
continue on we have a lot more to talk
about with our brother Ali so make sure
you come back next week to enjoy the
rest of his story thank you alah