Hello, this is Dr. Gerald Dirks,
formerly the Reverend Gerald Dirks. In
just a few moments here on the Dean
Show, we'll be talking about my
conversion to Islam. Please don't go
away.
Alhamdulillah. Assalamu alaykum, which
is a greeting of peace. Peace be unto
you. Welcome to another episode of the
Dean Show, where we're here trying to
help you understand Islam and Muslims.
And when we come back, we have a very
special guest who was a former Christian
minister. He has graduated with honors
from the prestigious Harvard University
with a master's in divinity,
started studying the Bible at a very
young age. He has so much to share with
us today on the Dean Show and I'm so
excited to have him here with us. So,
you don't want to go nowhere. We're
going to be talking to Dr. Gerald Dirks
when we come back here on the Dean Show.
You don't want to go nowhere. We'll be
right back.
Allah, [music and singing]
there's only one word and is his
messenger. Allah
Allah. [music]
Allah.
There's only one God and Jesus was his
messenger. [music]
Allah
Allah. I don't know why I did that.
Maybe it's just to break the ice.
Assalamu alaykum.
Well, salam.
How are you, brother?
Alhamdulillah.
Thank you so much for taking the time
out of your busy schedule to come and
visit us here at the Dean Show.
It's my pleasure, brother.
We uh have
got to uh mention a few things about
you. Uh you were actually a former
minister, a deacon,
ordained deacon in the United Methodist
Church. And you have a master's degree
in divinity from Harvard University.
From Harvard Divinity School. Correct.
Wow. This is uh and and the list goes
on. You uh were a uh preacher at many
starting at a young age. You worked as a
youth minister, ordained minister, and
the list goes on. You've we have some
books also here that you have uh
authored.
Yes.
We're going to uh mention a few of the
books here. You have uh the Abraham, the
friend of God, which uh is this book
here. Well, that's actually the
Abrahamic faith.
The the Abrahamic faiths. You have uh
easy to understand Islam. It's another
book here. You have uh Muslims in
America, the history.
Yeah.
And you have uh letters
to my elders in Islam.
Yes.
You have understanding Islam.
Now, you've wrote written a lot of books
on Islam
and the crescent and the cross.
Yeah. The cross and the crescent. Yes.
You like to write, huh? [laughter]
So these are some of your books that
you've authored. You you're obviously uh
very busy writing books. You you you uh
uh are out there uh trying to now uh uh
men the bridges, build the bridges to
help develop a better understanding
between Islam uh the Muslims and people
of other faiths. But we want to hear
about your story. We want to know why
would someone who was so high up in the
ranks, who had so much knowledge of
Christianity, you know the Bible well,
what happened? Let's talk from your
We'll get a little bit of a history from
a young age. Talk to us, tell us how you
uh got involved in in Christianity and
your parents and etc.
Sure. Actually, there's probably four
parts to the story.
Yes.
And the first part would be sort of my
journey into the Christian ministry.
Yeah. The second part would be my
leaving the ministry.
Third part would be my years as what I
called an atypical Christian.
Yeah.
And then finally the fourth part my
journey into Islam.
But you ask about the first part which
is my sort of journey to the Christian
ministry.
Yeah.
I grew up in a small rural community in
Kansas where the church was the center
of community life. Uh it was a small
town of about 500 people. We had three
churches. Uh every summer there were uh
ice cream socials at the churches,
chicken pot pie dinners, corn roast,
etc. And the churches really were the
center of community life. And that was
true for my family as well. We attended
the local Methodist church and uh
throughout my childhood uh I was very
actively involved in collecting my
perfect attendance pens from Sunday
school, my awards for memorizing
biblical verses etc. And so by the time
I reached junior high school uh I was
already considering the ministry as a
personal calling. And about that time uh
during the annual youth Sunday uh I was
always selected to deliver the sermon.
And word of that got around and before
long I was preaching at various other
local churches upon occasion at nursing
homes at various church affiliated
organizations etc.
How old was this at?
Uh I was probably uh about uh 14 when
this started.
Very very young age.
Yeah.
uh and and so I continued in that
direction and at age 17 I entered
Harvard College as an undergraduate
uh with a philosophy uh major which was
gearing towards seminary.
Mhm.
And uh continued on in that direction in
197
actually 1969
I received my license to preach from the
United Methodist Church. in 1971,
graduated uh as an undergraduate and
entered uh Harvard Divinity School,
which is a three-year program leading to
a degree in uh Master of Divinity. In
1972, I was ordained a deacon in the
United Methodist Church. And in 1974,
uh I graduated with a master of divinity
from uh uh Harvard Divinity School.
spent that summer as an interim minister
in two rural parishes in Kansas. But in
the fall of 1974,
I left the ministry
or at least left the parish ministry. I
was still an ordained minister,
but uh never again would I uh fill a
pulpit after the fall of 1974,
which probably brings us to the second
part of the story if you want to move in
that direction.
Yeah. Tell us why will you go into that?
Why did you end up I mean you were
filling the pulpits. I mean did you have
like a big crowd people would be excited
to come listen to you preach and did you
guys have a band? How did that work? So
describe this this atmosphere.
Uh well at the risk of sounding immodest
Yeah.
Uh typically everywhere I I preached we
set attendance records.
You were like a Jimmy Swagger at the
time of of I mean please don't do that
of of your community. maybe a Joe
Olstein of of the the small little town
or
Well, I I I don't want to do do
comparisons, but suffice it to say uh
attendance typically skyrocketed.
Oh, nice.
When when uh I was behind the pulpit.
So, people knew who you were.
Yes.
They wanted you they wanted a ticket to
get into this uh uh church to see and to
hear what you had to say because you had
knowledge. You were a man of knowledge.
Um amongst other things. Yeah.
Okay. So talk to us now from filling the
pulpits, people lined up wanting to hear
what you had to say from preaching the
Bible. What now led you to leave the
pulpit?
Well, when people ask me
Mhm.
I I usually say there's a long story and
a short story.
Yes.
The short story is a good seminary
education. The long story takes a little
longer,
but basically it's one of the ironies of
life that the churches often take the uh
most promising of their young ministers
and they send them to really good
seminaries.
And in those really good seminaries such
as the one I was fortunate enough to
attend, you are systematically exposed
to the oldest existing texts of how the
Bible actually once read. You're exposed
to the changes that were made in those
texts, when those changes took place,
why those changes took place, where
those changes took place. Um,
so once you receive that knowledge
and those changes, by the way, raise
serious serious questions
about such fundamental Christian
doctrines as the Trinity, the sunship of
Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, uh, the
crucifixion event, and the doctrine of
atonement in the blood. All of these
come into serious question when you look
at the oldest manuscripts that we have
of what the Bible once said. So that was
one consideration. The other
consideration is that you are also given
a very good grounding in the history of
the early church.
Now this is seminary school.
Yes.
Is this a when when when does now
seminary school come? Is that that's
after Harvard now?
Well, first you do the undergraduate. I
did four years undergraduate at Harvard.
Okay.
Received my BA
and then entered Harvard Divinity
School, which is a seminary.
Yes.
And that's a three-year course of
studies leading to a master of divinity.
Okay. Gotcha.
So, the second thing you're exposed to
is the actual history of the early
Christian church. And in terms of that,
you're you're exposed to the decidedly
geopolitical minations
that really went into defining some of
the fundamental doctrines and dogmas of
Christianity. And notice I said
geopolitical minations, not theological
considerations, not religious
considerations, but political
considerations that went in.
You're also exposed to the tremendous
breadth of knowledge, the tremendous
breadth of opinion that existed within
early Christianity. You know, it was not
monolithic.
This is this like kind of like the
Christian fick.
Well, [laughter]
suffice it to say, there were many
different branches.
Yeah.
To early Christianity.
Now, the branch that survived basically
into modern times was Pauline
Christianity.
uh this was the Christianity that
developed out of the teachings of Paul
or or Saul of Tarsus.
This is what's mainstream today.
Yes. Basically. Yeah. But there were
many other branches to early
Christianity, some of which survived for
centuries
before they eventually died out. And one
of the fundamental distinctions that uh
we can make is between Pauline
Christianity which was the Christianity
that Paul took to the Gentiles and the
non-Jews principally in Europe but also
to a certain extent in Asia Minor. And
we can contrast that with what's called
the Jerusalem church. Now this was the
actual disciples of Jesus.
Yes.
And how they practiced and what they
believed. And there were decided
differences between these two groups.
But over time because of geopolitical
considerations
the different branches of Christianity
was sort of systematically eliminated
one by one. And when that was done uh
unfortunately
that was done often at the expense of
destroying
uh books that were once considered
scripture by some of these branches of
Christianity. So a lot of knowledge was
lost in the destruction of these books.
But these are the the two fundamental
reasons uh why I left the Christian
ministry. It really boiled down to an
issue of personal integrity.
Mhm.
You know, how could I stand behind the
pulpit on Sunday morning and preach a
sermon that I knew was at variance with
the actual taproot of Christianity. Of
course, if I stood behind the pulpit on
Sunday morning and preached what I had
been taught in seminary, I'd be looking
for a new job within a week.
Yeah.
So, this conflict existed. And as a
result, uh to preserve my personal
integrity, I left the active ministry
and pursued graduate school in clinical
psychology. And by the way,
approximately half of my graduating
class from Harvard Divinity School
walked away from the parish ministry
upon graduation. So I wasn't the only
one.
Is this kind of like the Have you heard
of Bart Arum?
Yes. Yes. kind of people also who have
gotten engrossed and really started to
go deeper into studying the original
text and many of them they come to the
conclusion that you have that you know a
lot of this uh is not making sense it
doesn't fit.
Sure. Sure. And and uh you know the uh
biblical scholar you mentioned is a good
example of that but there are many
others as well.
Um
can you can you name a few that pe some
people who are out there the academics
who they recognize these people these
names? Uh well, Bartman is is certainly
one.
Uh but it's really almost any good
biblical scholar knows. I mean, all you
have to do is pick up a good Bible
commentary.
Yeah.
Such as the interpreter's Bible
commentary and begin reading it. Yeah.
And you'll be exposed in the process to
wait a minute. This text originally read
this way and this was inserted into the
text around the year 380 in Spain. This
sort of information is there. It's
available to the public, but they have
to really go out and study in order to
find it.
That's the thing. How many actually want
to take the time to investigate instead
of just blindly going along with what
everyone else is going along with?
Yeah. And it does take a great deal of
time.
Yeah.
To try and do it on your own.
Uh-huh. Tell us, did you feel now before
we move forward with the story, did you
feel before you were engrossed with all
this new knowledge that you were
impervious to someone else coming in
with other beliefs, views, opinions?
Were you really staunch in your belief
that it was unshakable before you got
all this new knowledge?
Sure. I I mean, I had believed what I
had been taught in church and Sunday
school, probably just like everyone else
believes what they're taught in church
and Sunday school. Um, and so it is a
it's it's a real shock when all of a
sudden you're confronted with a text uh
that says um
you know in these verses of the Bible uh
if you look at the original text it
raises real questions as to whether or
not Jesus was actually crucified.
Yeah.
U so that that's a shock.
Tell us also who are you emulating? Who
did you feel you we all are emulating?
Somebody we have role models. Who were
you before emulating? Who were you
trying to Were you trying to be like
Jesus? Were you trying to be like a
certain pastor, a preacher?
Well, there there are certainly
ministers who had an influence on me.
Um and ministers to to whom I I looked
up and and admired. Uh certainly the
role model of of Jesus uh peace be upon
him as is presented in in the four
gospels of the Bible is a very powerful
and very positive role model.
Yeah. Uh, so that was always there as
well.
Yeah. Tell us. Now, this is very
interesting. It's intriguing. I'm sure
people's ears are glued to the screen.
There's one thing I just wanted to to uh
have you comment on because we want this
those sincere and honest people who are
really wanting to know the truth. We
want them to be able to understand this.
But there are some people who sometimes
they just can't get past certain things
and they're looking at your beard.
[laughter]
We want them to get past the beard. Tell
us about the beard for a second.
Well, the beard for me is simply
following the example uh of prophet
Muhammad uh who advised us uh in a
hadith or in one of his sayings that
that we shouldn't trim the beard that we
should let the beard grow.
So um with that advice from the prophet
peace be upon him uh I let my beard
grow.
Didn't Jesus have a beard?
Well, we assume so.
Didn't Moses have a beard? Well, we
assume so. Beards beards were uh fashion
at that time at that part of the world.
Yeah. Fashion's changed for people, but
for what God has ordained through his
messengers as the teachers, they were
the ones that we should be emulating,
isn't it?
Yes. Yes. [snorts] That that is what
remains stable.
So, this is just a pious example of
somebody trying to emulate the best of
human beings, these prophets. Yes. Would
you say? Okay. So, I hope that one
person or two they got past the beer.
Now tell us,
did you believe earnestly with full
conviction that the Bible was the word
of God Almighty before again you got
engrossed in all this new knowledge?
Well, I I think we have to define what's
meant by the word of God because there
there's two main beliefs that run
throughout Christianity. If if you look
at different Christians, there's one
group of Christians primarily those uh
who call themselves fundamentalists or
or the far-wing of the Christian right
who believe that the Bible is word for
word the literal words of God. But
there's a second group of Christians,
typically you find them amongst mainline
Protestants and Roman Catholics, etc.
who say, "Well, the Bible was inspired
by God, but it was funneled through
human beings."
And so their personal historical
context, etc. We have to take that into
account. But the basic message, the
inspiration is from God. Even though we
can't take things literally word for
word.
So you believe this actually.
Yes. Yes.
Okay. And now did your obviously belief
change once you finish seminary school?
Oh absolutely.
What did you think then?
Well again when you when you're
confronted with the variances and what
the original text said and what the
Bible says now as you read it uh as I
said before that that's a shocking
experience.
U and it causes one to question. Mhm.
You know what else is here that has been
changed where I don't have the original
text anymore. So I don't know that this
change has taken place.
Yeah.
You know it's we know what we know but
how many other places there may have
been changes. We don't know.
Now did you lose a lot? Now we're going
to get into it and and again people want
to know the big question. Why? Why did
you accept Islam? Why did you come to be
a Muslim? We're going to get to that. We
just want to lead to that. Did you ever
get people who came to you with a
confused look on their face about this
trinity, wanting to know a little more
adamantly how they could make this fit?
God being obviously
three in one. Is that correct? Father,
son, and the goals, but not three, but
one. And somebody just came to you and
said, "Uh, pastor, uh, did they call
you, uh, what was the title? They call
you pastor." Sure, Reverend
Pastor Dirks, can you please explain to
me? I can't figure this out. Who do I
pray to? Do I pray to the Father, the
Son, the Holy Ghost? Did you have these
experiences?
Not that often. And and the reason for
that again is, you know, people are
taught in Sunday school. They're taught
in church from a very early age. You
know, God is three persons in one
substance.
That's the traditional Protestant and
Roman Catholic formulation of the
Trinity. Uh some of the eastern churches
say three substances in one essence.
Yes.
But this becomes a catchphrase. Three
persons in one substance.
You don't think about it. You don't
question it. It it's just sort of an
automatic response. If you're asked
about the trinity, you say, "Oh, three
persons in one substance. Three persons
being the father, the son, and the holy
ghost." And so people tend to accept
this because it was ingrained at a very
early age. Mhm.
They tend not to question it or say,
"Now wait a minute, exactly what does
that mean?"
Um, and when people do, those few who
do, typically they find that they can't
make any sense out of it.
Uh, in fact, Aphanasius, who was in many
ways the father of the doctrine of the
trinity, is reported to have said, uh,
very late in life as he was dying that
the more he thought about the notion of
the trinity, the less sense it made to
it.
Uh so this this is a very confusing
issue and I think most Christians
typically avoid it.
Yes,
they just fall back on that early
learning of saying three persons in one
substance. And if there's any
questioning that goes beyond that, the
response is well that's one of the
divine mysteries.
What about the egg, shell, the yolk or
the water and it being three components,
one part? Have you gotten this? Oh, the
sort of thing about uh compare the
trinity to uh uh H2O, which can be
steam,
water, or ice.
Mhm.
Yeah. I I've gotten that. The
interesting thing is that's actually
officially a heresy
in uh traditional Christian thought.
Um because you're you're denying the
three persons.
Yeah. Most Christians who try to grapple
their way to some understanding
of the Trinity that goes beyond simply
saying three persons in one substance
without realizing it often drift off
into what the church has already
condemned as heresy in terms of their
understanding of the Trinity.
Yeah.
Wow. This amazing. We are almost out of
time for this session. We're going to
have to do a part two. We Let's get a
few more questions in. Again, we're
excited and we want to know like what
led up to finally accepting Islam, but
we want to dig a little more to find out
some of the things the unique
experiences that you did you had. Did
you used to sing?
No, I see a lot of singing going on.
Terrible sense of pitch.
Okay. Now, tell us uh what did you
believe now? You found these things. You
went from believing that this the Bible
which
you were uh brought up reading,
studying, learning was the word of God.
Correct. And now you go through this.
Now what did you believe? Did you
believe that there was still some of the
word of God in it and it was uh man's uh
uh adding deleting?
Yeah. Certain certainly I believe there
there was divine inspiration in the
Bible in places.
Yeah.
I also realized that there were
corruptions in the Bible in places. I
believe very strongly that there was
God.
Yes.
And only one God. Uh but I had no belief
in the divinity of Jesus Christ peace be
upon him. I had no belief in uh the
doctrine of the trinity. I had serious
questions about the crucifixion event.
Mhm.
So I was uh basically from the time I
left the active ministry in 1974 until I
became a Muslim many years later, what I
called an atypical Christian.
Mhm. What's atypical Christian? Well,
for me, atypical Christian is someone
who doesn't believe in the divinity of
Jesus, who rejects the notion of the
trinity, but still maintains a deep and
abiding belief in God, and who still uh,
you know, picks up the Bible, reads it
for the good moral instruction that is
found in it in many places. Um, and
continues to study
uh the Bible. uh continues. For example,
for me, going down to the local seminary
and haunting the bookstore and
purchasing new books on recent
archaeological finds having to do with
various texts of the Bible, etc.
Did you find yourself getting in some
dialogues with other people who believe
staunchly that no, no, no, Jesus is God,
that he is the son of God also, and that
he died for your sins since obviously
now you didn't you had the antithesis of
this. you would believe something
opposite to it. Did you have some
conflict here with other peers or
members of your uh congregation or
friends or
Well, no, no real conflict. In fact, I
didn't attend church very much at all.
This is later on now that you learn
once I left the ministry. You know, a
few times a year that would be it
primarily because I thought it was an
important family function to do.
Uh but typically I would go uh I would
listen to a sermon. I would grit my
teeth as I heard things I knew were not
true.
Give us an example. Give us an example.
Well, um
the Trinity,
yes,
for example, or the divinity of Jesus,
peace be upon him.
Uh or or some of the statements that
were made about the crucifixion or the
doctrine of the atonement in the blood.
You're sitting there just like, how can
they preach this?
Exactly. Exactly.
This is amazing. Well, what it is a lot
of ministers
Yeah.
uh rationalize
Uhhuh.
and they say, "I know what I mean when I
say the son of God."
Uhhuh.
And I understand it this way in sort of
a metaphorical way or I understand it as
I believe the actual disciples
understood that term or as it was
understood in first century Palestine.
However, their congregation probably
doesn't
Yeah. understand it that way when that
phrase is said.
Did you feel like this also went against
your very nature, this inherent nature
that God put in all of us to recognize
the truth? Did you feel that something
inside you said no?
Sure. Yeah.
And do you feel like a lot of people
that they that you know you said
atypical Christian I've come across and
these are are brothers in h in humanity.
Yes. And we are to be the kindness to
them. And we are to share this way of
life that we believe that all the
messengers of God they lived which was
surrender and submission obedience
sincerity and in peace which is summed
up one word Islam to share with them. We
don't have to proitize and you know try
to twist their arms to accept it. But if
they want to hey
it's there for you. Sure.
It's a way of life that God has ordained
for everybody take it. If not you can at
least understand us and we can be
brothers working together for some kind
of good. Now tell us before we got like
two minutes and we're gonna have to do a
part two. This is so exciting.
Tell us now.
Did you
feel that you now because a lot of these
people you said atypical
I'll come across people like I was
saying that they are Christian but they
don't believe Jesus is God.
Other people believe that he's son of
God not God. There's some confusion
here. Did you at any time feel like you
know what uh confused now, lost? What do
I do? Where do I go from here?
Well, I think there are a lot of
atypical Christians out there actually
um probably more among the ordained
clergy than among the ley
because the ordained clergy has been
exposed typically
Yeah.
to at least some of this information.
Mhm.
In fact, there was a study done by uh
Psychology Today magazine back in the
early 1970s, I think it was,
where they listed what they considered
to be 10 fundamental beliefs of
Christianity.
And they went out and surveyed the
Christian ley and found that on the
average Christian ley believed in about
seven, I think it was of these 10.
Yeah.
When they surveyed the ordained
ministry, they found they believed in
about four
of the 10. So, you can see the
discrepancy.
This is not odd. Isn't it that uh I
don't know maybe in the 70s or 80s that
the Anglican bishops they had come to a
unanimous decision that you didn't to be
a Christian you didn't have to believe
that Jesus was God also
well I'm I'm not going to speak for the
Anglican bishops
because this is something that that I
came across so it's not something odd
that people they also go with what's in
their nature and they reject this belief
that a man can be God that Jesus was God
etc. Yeah, that's true of a lot of
people who who I would say are atypical
Christians.
Yeah, we are out of time. We will
inshallah continue next week doing part
two
because we didn't answer how you
stumble, how you accepted submission and
surrender to the one God. Nothing in
creation, but to the creator who made
the sun, the moon, who created Jesus,
who Jesus prayed to actually, didn't he?
Yes.
Okay, we could do the part two.
Yes.
Inshallah. I'm excited
and I'm sure you're excited also. Thank
you, Jazakah, my brother and Jazakha,
thank you so much for being with us. I
know you're excited, but you know what?
We got to take a time out. We've come
and run out of time, but next week we're
going to continue on and we're going to
answer this question. Why Islam? You got
to hear a little bit about the past,
about Dr.
uh Durk's
um going through Harvard University,
going through the seminary and being on
the pulpit, filling the crowds with
preaching the Bible, but now he's a
Muslim and you want to know why. And
we're going to bring you his story
inshallah, God willing. Thank you. We'll
see you next week here on the Dean Show.
Until then, assalamu aalaykum. Peace be
unto you.
I love
[singing]
Why?