because I have patients come often in
their families and they'll say but it's
definitely gin because we're so
desensitized to Witchcraft witches are
actually going into supermarkets in
broad daylight and putting curses on
food look at this right now
one prayer modern Psychology today it
actually says modern Psychology today
has quote lost its Soul the songs that
are out there with the 50 cents the Lady
Gaga's and stuff can you sit with a
psychiatrist and he'll tell you like you
need to stop listening to uh to Chris
Brown
[Applause]
[Music]
show
I'm here with Dr Rania Awad who's a
clinical associate professor of
Psychiatry at the Stanford University
School of Medicine where she is the
director of the Stanford Muslim mental
health and Islamic psychology lab as
well as Stanford University's affiliate
chaplain she also serves as the
associate division chief for public
mental health and public Sciences as
well as the section co-chief
faculty member of the abacia program in
Islamic Studies and training and I can
go on we're going to get right into the
first question but before I do that
how are you alhamdulillah doing well
thank you for joining us
place and I can't wait to see what all
of this is going to become soon
inshallah
I've known brother Eddie and I didn't
show for many many years and as a matter
of fact I was one of the original people
who showed up on his show alhamdulillah
he's been doing a great job
alhamdulillah
through his show through his activities
in andawa right now they work in
hamdullah on a great project the dean
Center which is now taken this dhawa
from such a small show to become nice
larger audience and they need your
support and I give them my support to
shout out for the dean Center hopefully
inshallah you can look into it and put
some running charity and walk for your
substitutional on this project that
brings you continuous charity for the
rest of your life until the day of Judge
support the dean Center
[Music]
people are maybe saying what's these
things rolled up we haven't got the
carpets yet but these are the carpets in
Charlotte gonna be laid down
bless this effort along that I mean I
mean I mean I mean so I want to ask you
we often hear some very ignorant people
or just you know people who might have
good intentions but and some people not
so good intentions make statements like
what have Muslims ever contributed to
humanity in similar words or sentiment
how would you respond to that because
you recently talked about Muslims
creating the first hospitals in human
history amongst other things mashallah
the first hospitals in human history to
have psychiatric sections or Awards
within those hospitals which is truly
and amazing things finally think about
it other civilizations have definitely
had their caring Health Care Systems
hospitals and Care Centers but what you
don't find what's very much missing in
those is a psychiatric mental health
treatments which meant that the Muslims
really understood that you had to be
able to treat mind body and soul
together you couldn't actually separate
them out so their healing institutions
literally in Arabic we say
or in Persian fantasy and any of the
uradulla speaking languages you'll know
that the word be mod is illness Stan is
location so the term was B modestense
they had these mental health sections
within their hospitals and that is
unique there's something there that
essentially inspires the Muslims to say
there's no discrimination between
physical health and mental health and so
that is a major contributions
non-muslims have written about how the
hospitals we have today their blueprints
are literally owed to the
muslimaristans that were created by the
Muslims that actually those were the
blueprints for the modern hospital today
so this is the first in human history
you're saying we can't find any proof of
this in other civilizations not the
Romans or Greeks not the Chinese or
Indian civilizations where they're
actually here in the Muslim
civilizations you find the first of
these hospitals being created and the
psychiatric sections within them all
right jumping into this term mental
health and I'm going to give a very
simple
definition you tell me is this simple
enough mental health includes our
emotional psychological and social
well-being it affects how we think feel
and act it also helps determine how we
handle stress related to others Etc is
this simple enough it is a simple enough
mashallah answer it's it's a very big
umbrella term when people think mental
health sometimes they go straight to a
clinical diagnosis they think depression
anxiety trauma but actually mental
health is this very big umbrella under
which you find anything related to
interactions between other people so
parenting marriage things related to
kind of how we deal with and communicate
with individuals in our life all of this
can be helped by mental health and by
counseling through mental health if
there's issues or disruptions in any of
those interactions uh can you unpackage
the term Muslim mental health Islamic
psychology of course yes yeah so most of
the mental health and Islamic psychology
are two terms that are connected they're
adjacent to each other I would say but
they're different so muslimental health
is really the mental health of Muslim
populations whereas Islamic psychology
is anytime you put the word Islam before
something it means that you have to
start with Islam first so the foundation
is Islam and from there you build a
psychology so it's really a ground up
versus a Muslim and health is much more
what we say kind of a top-down approach
so you might take the field of mental
health today and see how it fits with
Muslims you might filter things out and
kind of make it customize it for Muslims
whereas Islamic psychology is different
you actually start with the Sharia first
the foundation first of Islam and build
on it and understanding of the human
psyche and that was something that the
our Noble predecessors from centuries
ago had actually written about
extensively what is the human soul what
is the human mind what is the human
connection to all of these things and
how do you better oneself in terms of
wellness and what are the ways in which
you do so so that is an Islamic
psychology so they're connected Fields
but different from one another when you
brought some of your research to your
professor did they feel like they
reached the maximum now that they were
like okay we discovered it all we got
all the labels everything but then now
what was the reaction from was it you're
teaching your professor when you brought
some of your research and you had shared
this with him right yeah that was an
interesting story and and certainly his
first reaction was no no we've we've
already figured all of this out as in to
say and it was really interesting too I
mean a great person don't get me wrong
but he was absolutely saying but we've
published everything there is to publish
about this already and he even
historically he was saying he pulled off
papers from his shelf about here is what
the Greek said here's what the Romans
said here's what you know and my
question very simply to him was but can
you read in Arabic and he kind of took a
step back and said no can you and I
think that's what kind of unfolded this
whole understanding of often what you
find in the books related to most things
not just Health
um and psychology but most things you
find the Greeks and Romans mentioned and
it's almost like this complete skipping
over all the way to the modern era and
in Psychology especially skipped
straight to the 19th century Europe
you're talking about you know
essentially a as though they were the
forefathers of psychology completely
ignoring anything happening in the
Muslim world and most of that is still
untranslated it's not actually available
in English and so I think when he saw
the translation or asked me to go
translate it and I came back with a
translation he was very excited he
realized the scientific potential of
what we were seeing that's something
like in this case it was OCD
obsessive-compulsive disorder and we
have another paper on phobias very
similarly he realized that actually it's
going to rewrite history it's going to
rewrite medical history in that this
wasn't something that was discovered in
the 19th century like they were thinking
and had always taught us in school this
way but actually these symptoms these
constellation of symptoms existed for
humans probably since the dawn of time
and that in itself rewrites history and
so you know I was really thankful that
he saw that and even encouraged me to
publish and that's kind of how a lot of
the work even in my lab started tell me
here's here's one thing help me
understand this help us understand this
you would think because we're so
advanced
as a society would think with technology
we have so many academics so many
psychologists psychiatrists in these
fields of study in mental health so much
money being spent so much money being
made so many drugs being prescribed but
we have more mental health mental health
is a crisis like never before what is it
like what are the statistics like every
two and five people something like that
depending on what you're reading yeah
you would think now that it would be on
the decline I mean but it's on the rise
it seems like a a contradiction here how
and why and especially after the
pandemic the numbers are kind of
astronomical in comparison I really
think the pandemic did something I think
when we all went into isolation and it's
almost like the truth was told if you
will and so it's almost like we say like
a like a cover was like ripped off with
the truth kind of unfolding of how
people were really doing and I think
there's a lot of distractions in the
modern world right a lot of we're
plugged in almost constantly and to
really deal with the matters that are
really at hand like how are you really
doing with the people in your life
interactions human interactions how are
you actually dealing with how you fit
into the world and your role like what's
your purpose here we're always so
distracted by the modern world and
everything that has to give that when
people were in isolation and in lockdown
I think that kind of a lot of the
realization came and also mortality so
many people were dying and there was no
real cure or solution to something like
covid in the early months and so there
was really a sense of like what is the
purpose of life and I think a lot of
people went into that existential kind
of like Crisis as well as isolation
really did a number on so many people so
we're seeing a whole lot more mental
health and that's continued that trend
is continued since
um and to me subhanallah I'm not so
surprised because what we understand
from an Islamic perspective of Wellness
right and mental health being one part
of the Wellness Formula you realize that
unless you're kind of spiritually sound
physically sound mentally sound you're
not actually sound altogether
and ignoring any one of these you end up
being in balance in a sense of you know
lack of balance and so to me it's it's
not just a mental health crisis it's
actually a crisis of balance altogether
this term mental health what was it
labeled before this is an English term
obviously in Arabic what would you call
it and is there a rich Islamic history I
mean obviously if there was the first
mental health or
clinics or hospitals in hospital dealing
with this there has to be a very rich
history and then giving it to your
professors about the rewrite history of
today yes I we don't know was this stuff
suppressed like many other things that
are suppressed and you know or lost
translation translation time yeah so
talk to us how how did the Muslim
thinkers the psychologists what were
they called at that time
yeah the term psychology doesn't show up
in Islamic traditional Islamic history
but what you do find is this word called
the science of the Neffs or the self
and the science of the self exactly and
it's really interesting this is
um was very different than today today
you find most people writing about
psychology are scientists they're in the
medical or scientific professions but in
traditional Islamic history it was very
interdisciplinary you have the
scientists writing about this but you
also had the folks who were writing from
an Islamic perspective so all those who
are theologians those who are writing on
the betterment of the self so Hassan
basically or Hassan Sciences were all
tusky and essan we're all actually
writing on our Windows as well and then
you have your philosophers interestingly
enough also contributing so it was very
interdisciplinary because they came at
it from this interconnected
understanding of a human psyche Mind
Body Soul so you have those who are
writing about the cognition those are
writing about the heart the metaphysical
heart those who are writing about the
the basically your soul or your spirit
and those who are writing about the
nephesis understood in the Quran and so
all four of these aspects are very much
interconnected in the Muslim version of
this and so their science was much
richer than what you currently have in
Psychology today
so are you seeing now a conflict here
because you might be sitting in a
psychology seminar or whatnot and you're
saying hold on we have the solution here
but you guys don't want to even
acknowledge a soul or you don't want to
these terms that we have we can actually
cure a lot of these things and now
you've seen a dilemma here with this guy
it's so interesting I mean there is
actually there's a modern
um criticism of psychology modern
Psychology today it actually says modern
Psychology today has quote lost its soul
they don't believe in a circle they lost
theirs they lost their soul here's why
because if you look at 18th century 19th
century writings on psychology in the
beginnings of kind of what we call
Modern Western psychology a lot of the
writings we're actually interested in
the soul but there was a lot of writings
on the soul and on interpreting what is
the soul what is this ephemeral kind of
you know thing that you can't really
touch but you know was there a lot of
writing on dreams for example in modern
today like modern Clinical Psychology
today what you find is anything you
can't reproduce in a lab anything that
you can't see under fmri or kind of MRI
machine that you can't touch or
reproduce is invalid scientifically
speaking so they stop studying the soul
so literally
the pun here is actually intended that
psychology quote lost its soul and with
that you find a lot of people not just
Muslims I have a lot of colleagues
throughout the nation actually who are
doing work on kind of a religious and
spiritual aspects of psychology kind of
trying to bring that back into the story
saying you can't be a well-rounded and
balanced human being if you don't have
spirituality connected to it and so if
there's a whole group of folks where you
know Christians or Jewish folks or
people in other Faith Traditions
actually trying to bring spirituality
back to psychology and the Muslims are
right there with them and doing that
take us back in time in history what
could something like that look like if
somebody how would someone get diagnosed
at that time would you think would you
say that they had maybe some mental
health issues could it be someone just
having so much stress anxiety maybe
someone went away from Allah from God
Almighty and now they're feeling the
effects on their soul and then what kind
of therapy what would the scholar of
that time the person the physical
physician of that time the person the
doctor of the self the Neffs would come
in and sit you down talk therapy where
they give them some therapy of Quran how
would paint a picture of how would that
go well it was like we mentioned how I
saw an animal nests or Islamic
Psychology was very interdisciplinary
the treatments were also very
interdisciplinary so what I mean by that
is the one who I was running the most
about Al belchi from the 9th century the
one who I wrote about for OCD if I use
that example obsessive-compulsive
disorder what he says is very
interesting he basically says look all
humans have all of us have a certain
level of whisperings of shaitaan that
kind of makes us doubt or kind of Wonder
you know if I did something or didn't my
third prayer what's going on here and he
says that all people this is normative
all people have some level of this but
some individuals have what he calls a
pathological level meaning a clinical
medical level of this where it's really
overpowering you and so what he says is
for those individuals he gives three
solutions right so he basically says one
solution is in their pre-modern time he
would say take medicine and he actually
kind of gives you a concoction of like
what you would use in a pre-modern sense
of what would it be Physical Medicine to
take
and then another another part of the
solution is talk therapy which I thought
was so interesting because the kind of
therapy outlines in the 9th century is
exactly what we use today he actually
literally describes to you a kind of
talk therapy called ex gradual exposure
therapy which for something like
treating OCD you basically takes
something that you are concerned about
worried about over feeling very
overpowered by and you gradually slowly
but surely kind of expose that person to
it and eventually it kind of overpowers
it and so it kind of extinguishes it and
so he literally outlines this the 9th
century which is phenomenal and then the
third part of this he says and you can't
have any actual treatment unless you're
going to have to look good or dependence
on God so he brings a spiritual aspect
and he reminds us of having patience
having dependence on Allah after doing
your part which is the first two taking
your medicine and doing your therapy and
at the same time also making sure that
you're doing your prayers and connecting
to Allah so he basically outlines
effectively a basically a biological
psychological and spiritual aspect of
how you treat this condition and that is
exactly the solutions you find in so
many of the writings of the early greats
when they're talking about what today we
would call mental health condition
they're bringing the spiritual but
they're also bringing the biological
physical as well and that's very
impressive that's why we call it Islamic
yes Psychiatry because now it's
different than you're sitting obviously
there's that also talking but you people
Envision okay you go to a psychic to
psychologist psychiatrist psychiatrist
is more has the personality prescribed
medications yeah but we we see in we see
a an influx where drugs prescribe
prescription of drugs you know years
you're sat with someone and now you'll
sit for an hour two hours and then from
there you'll get a prescription from a
drug and sometimes unless sometimes it's
so much less yeah I mean people talk
about sitting with a psychiatrist for 20
minutes and then getting up you know
essentially 20 minutes yes sometimes
people will say all I got was pills
pushed on me and I I would say I'm and
I'm not I'm not the only one like this
but I'm very much an oddball
psychiatrist I probably do a lot more
therapy than I do medications would you
consider yourself like a holistic uh
mind you're trying to be yeah Allah
definitely that's the goal absolutely
and I do think the importance of
holistic medicine and hopefully the
field is actually starting to move more
and more in this direction but
definitely there's been a lot of
criticism of modern Psychiatry and just
pushing pills right as opposed to really
dealing with the root of the problem or
the opposite you find people who are
talking talking talking and not really
getting to really the issue which may be
biological and requires medication so
you have kind of both extremes and
nothing really balanced in the middle or
very little of that have you heard of a
psychiatrist by the name of Dr Kelly
Brogan
I have not now she talks about this
she's also someone who went she was your
conventional psychiatrist and she
narrates
um and others that she felt like she
wasn't helping people um she was
prescribing drugs and she found that
this was actually making matters worse
in a lot of cases and when she went
towards more of lifestyle and she went
more towards holistic she actually saw
starting with what people were nutrition
you know what people were putting in
their bodies all of these things she saw
she actually started seeing a difference
and she started getting more motivated
on the flip side she's narrating that
she was really felt like she was so you
know what she's doing she's doing
essentially a modern day be Madison
and the modern day be Madison the modern
day hospitals that the Muslims had when
you so okay so this is look back to
Islamic civilization absolutely here's
what they would do if you look at the
the care team that was taking care of
the patient at that time
it's it was not just the physician it's
so interesting in the book that we're
writing right now about the mimatistans
it's so interesting they have the
Physicians they had the nursing which
makes sense somebody who's taking care
of the patient but then also they had
with them the person who you would call
The dietitian who's actually working on
the specific meal plan for this specific
illness mental illness right figuring
out what the balance in their meal would
be to help them get better you also had
the pharmacist rotating with them which
basically is figuring out what specific
types of medications herbs concoction
needs to be given to this person also
rotating with them you had the person
who today in today's language we'd say a
social worker somebody who figures out
you know it's not just you here at the
hospital or in the clinic it's also your
home life so what do you need in your
community at home to be to do okay to do
better both while you're in the hospital
and outside of it and they have the
sixth person which is basically your
today you'd call this person a hospital
chaplain basically you're a spiritual
provider the person who gives them
reminders Islamic reminders on God all
of these people would rotate with each
patient every single day to take care of
them so when I say interdisciplinary I
really mean interdisciplinary care
because you have everything kind of
addressed not any one part of you is
left out in the story so yeah this this
is what we're talking about a holistic
approach not just there's a pill for
every ill that's right and now you end
up just masking the symptoms that's
right are the root causes of what's
really happening yeah what is this term
so how would they this is a popular
diagnosis isn't it it's bipolar okay and
how would you think if you take us back
in time how would again someone who is
labeled as bipolar how would they go
ahead and the same thing we're going
into the same procedures pretty much
it's some of the research that we were
looking at compared to today what is
what is what is diagnosed for bipolar
yeah so it's interesting some of the
diagnoses fit very well in what we're
seeing historically some of the
diagnoses are harder to tell so in
bipolar disorder you find basically Two
Poles right some somebody who is most of
the time actually depressed kind of if
this is your main if this is kind of
like your status quo kind of like the
where you're normally living at if you
will somebody who's bipolar is often
below this in kind of a depressed mode
and every so often they hit the other
pole which is kind of a manic pull which
is they're very excitable very happy
very very very
um up and but it's not sort of
productive often that very hot Mania
essentially is not a rational State
unfortunately and so that person is
actually doing kind of decisions and not
even realizing sometimes what they're
doing because it's not fully rational
and maybe making kind of riskier kind of
decisions that are not very useful what
do we find historically we're finding
that at mentions of individuals who were
not in a rational state of mind and so
what would happen is they would help
them by having them in the be Madison's
right these were places most mental
illness was dealt with at home actually
but if it was something so acute or so
intense this is where the hospitals are
very helpful to them so this is what I
meant by the balanced meals the balanced
medications the reminders of Allah even
subhanallah using things like all of
your senses so that so it wasn't just
medications they were receiving and talk
therapy they were doing but even things
like the colors The Sounds The Fountains
The Greenery making sure that they were
hearing and then kind of consistently
even using the the what people might
call today music therapy but it's
actually not so much music it's more the
tones
based in different kinds of bakam to
actually calm a person who's very kind
of very agitated kind of calm them down
or somebody very depressed to bring them
up there was a whole science to this and
they would actually bring because in the
Quran you have different parts yes of
course reading people would adopt
adopted the Balcones different tones in
the crowd to use that as you're reading
so when you read for example verses
related to heaven and you know and and
Paradise you're going to read up but if
it's something about Hellfire you're
going to read kind of down you're not
going to read that with a high tone
subhanallah so even adapting them on
that to the recitation of Quran was
healing so they would have also
specialized Rockies at the time who
would also do healing with with the
current with the Quran and subhanallah
even the institutions the Muslims did
everything beautifully with Assad with
Excellence right even the way remember
there's no microphones this is all
pre-modern so even the way that they
would build the angles of where the
patient rooms were wherever you stood
you can hear the Adan in your room like
they were very particular in making sure
that everything was dealt with and all
the senses were dealt with I interviewed
a psychiatrist
uh an American he said well not Muslim
and we spoke about the different terms
that are out there nowadays and he just
uh brought to light he said that and he
put it in terms of the insurance
companies because there are a lot of
term diagnoses nowadays and he said that
many of these were developed because the
doctors had to go ahead and be able to
Rick a pence from the insurance company
so that's why they had to classify
certain certain certain things with
certain patients to go ahead and receive
the yeah so uh what's your opinion on
that now like obviously someone can be
like you heard hear certain terms like
what some popular ones someone's toxic
narcissist this and that and the other
and there are people that fit certain
terms but do you see a lot of these
things also being weaponized nowadays
and this can also backfire where this
can also instead of elevating someone
you know to kind of you know get out of
certain bad habits that they might be
you know exhibiting
what in Psychology what in Islamic
psychology how do you deal in terms of
this where you don't fall into the Ayah
where Allah is saying don't insult each
other you know good use of good words
how do you approach this from an Islamic
perspective yeah an Islamic psychology
is very interesting because you're
talking about now kind of personality
disorders what would be in the in our
books of diagnosis of the DSM for
example on personality disorders and
Islamic psychology is very interesting
one of the things that I find very
important is that in these books of
diagnosis you're not going to you're
going to find certain diagnoses and
certain personality disorders but then
you're going to find a whole section
that is very important in Islamic
psychology completely missing from these
manuals so for example things like Envy
greed right avarice
um glut any you know any of these
basically we would call an Islamic
psychology and in Islam in general the
diseases of the heart you don't find
this you're not going to find a
psychologist diagnose you with something
like greed right right but we know that
that is problematic islamically it has
to be worked on and so the the matters
of the heart so in Islamic psychology
you have the aspects that are clinical
like the depression and the anxieties
and so on but then you also have aspects
of the heart diseases of the heart that
have to be purified and worked on as
well which here it doesn't even take
into consideration it almost frustrates
you a lot very much and when people come
to and Muslims come to our practice you
know I've hunted it I was very honored
to and blessed to help set out a few
different Muslim mental health clinics
and when people come Muslims come to
these clinics they're looking for both
things they're basically saying look I
may be someone who's somewhat depressed
or I'm dealing with anxiety maybe a
person has a social anxiety they they
have they get very very nervous kind of
in Social settings they want to work
through it but in addition to that maybe
they also have something else at home
they're kind of like you know in public
they're kind of have the social anxiety
about at home they're kind of like a bit
you know a bit of a monster right like
they they yell and they kind of make a
big fuss and so on and they want help
with both things and in Islamic
psychology you can work on both aspects
whereas in standard what I would call
Western psychology you wouldn't have the
space to be able to do both things
you're limited there there's a
limitation and the limitation isn't that
the person doesn't want to if they're
simply the clinician simply is entrained
you know if you try to tell them I'm
somebody that's very jealous right and I
see that jealousy show up a lot in my
marriage for example and it causes all
kinds of frictions and issues the person
it may be trained in marriage therapy
and can help you with specific things
within that maybe communication and
skills but when it comes to diseases of
the heart and matters of spirituality
they they're like I this is above my
ability and you know clinical abilities
and so part of part of the work that
we're doing right now is actually
building a clinical competencies in
religion and spirituality for clinicians
and part of it too is building and part
of the book that we I helped kind of
edit and co-write is a book on
introducing Islamic principles into
Clinic medical mental health care it's
this book is published and Clinic
clinicians are actually able to purchase
this and actually go through the
training of something called tiip
traditionally islamically integrated
Psychotherapy so we've developed a kind
of psychotherapy where you bring in the
Islamic principles and that I think
inshallah can help kind of both of these
issues we're talking about what about
the term what about the concept of
forgiveness holding on to grudges is it
limit is that another aspect that's
limited here that we really stress on
this in Islam right what about this area
is this something that's limited and how
much does that play a role in mental
health
holding on to grudges being unforgiving
not letting go of the past things like
this
and it's interesting forgiveness is is
Major I mean the psychology in general I
would say and there's always
um here when we say about Islamic
psychology what is it that's different
and what's different here is Islamic
understanding of something like
forgiveness because we understand that
we as humans have this capability But
ultimately Allah forgives even if we are
not willing and can't to hold on to that
Grudge he may forgive that other person
right and so ultimately that that Grudge
may end up kind of wearing down on us
and hurting us when in subhanallah
ultimately the final state of things is
actually with Allah
so in Islamic psychology we often talk
to people about look you may not be
something may be so heinous and so
harmful truly maybe even criminal that
something happened to the person that is
so traumatic to them that it's like I
can't get myself to forgive and so we
work through them with the through
through this in cycle in our therapy
sessions and work on maybe it's not so
much forgiving right at that moment
because it's not about forgetting what
happened like this is a real this is
part of your narrative we're not asking
for it to be erased right but actually
letting go of the part that's kind of
like wearing on you every single day and
wearing you down literally and realizing
that ultimately is the one who makes the
decision on what happens to that person
right that is a completely different
frame of therapy that I think you would
get in kind of your standard therapy
what do you think about this book do you
know about this book I was introduced to
it earlier
um and when I started practicing Islam
it's called don't be sad you know this
they do yes yeah what do you think about
this book and there's one part in the
book it talks about this letting go of
the past right and it was very powerful
the way the author talked about this how
this is a form of insanity just dwelling
over things of the past that can drive
you crazy and
they can for some people it can actually
kind of cause them to really it wears on
them so much that it's that they're not
able to kind of progress in their own
life like we talk about how that other
person that caused the problem in the
first place may actually be going
forward kind of enjoying life even in
the person who who was harmed is holding
on to it and harmed by it to a way that
they're not progressing in their own
life and they're holding on to it so
much so part of the work that we do is
really helping them be able to move
forward even if it's not a full
forgiveness and you're going to leave
that to Allah the part that you're able
to do is being able to progress forward
in your own life in Charlotte
so it does like you said earlier it does
and that was one of my questions how how
much does food and you touched upon it
how much does food our environment how
we sleep the everyday chemicals from
shampoos to makeup to some of the the
medications how much does that play a
role in mental health
well as if you come from the perspective
of everything is connected this kind of
interconnected system everything we're
talking about this is why the concept of
holistic healing is really the Islamic
concept of healing and which is why on
one hand you don't discriminate mental
health from physical health right on the
other hand it's also knowing that
everything is connected to your mental
health right so your physical well-being
um and and you know brother Eddie I have
to ask you because I know that there is
mashallah aspects here of having a gym
and having a facility to actually work
out and I think that's so important for
mental health that's very important for
mental health absolutely yeah okay
absolutely 100 and I also have to ask
you with all the aspects Michelle you're
doing in the Dallas Center I hope we'll
also see a mental health section here
too yeah yes a holistic a holistic
mental health section yes like I said
inspired by these Madison's you
obviously know about Tony Robbins right
he's one of the gurus in motivation and
that and I like where he put in people
who were attending because he had a lot
of Muslims attending a lot of his stuff
and he has a
section A Day a whole day on nutrition
sure yes of course I mean if you think
about it what you you know they say like
you know you are what you eat the kind
of concept and and you also are what
your company is you know there's a lot
of things that you are based on what's
kind of the intake that's coming forward
you are what you listen to you are what
you you are what you listen to
absolutely okay honestly what you think
about all the senses right all of these
are Outlets to the heart is in the
Muslim belief so the concept here is
what you're looking at what you're
hearing who you're interacting with what
you're saying all of it kind of affects
the heart both positive and negative and
the heart is the conduit in the Islamic
tradition that Imam al-az Ali his
concept is his his model if you love
human psyche is that the heart the Khal
is at the center and connected to it is
cognition right connected to it is your
emotions it says connected to is zero
rule we write your spirit to your soul
and connect to it to is your neph's
yourself and so all of this is very
interconnected but the heart is really
at the core in the Islamic tradition and
so this concept like I had says of the
Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam if
the heart is sound the whole body is
sound and that's why the physical health
is part of the nutritionist part of this
your sleep is part of this your prayers
are part of this as well
now you mentioned the what we see what
we hear in modern day
Psychiatry do they hit upon these things
where we don't have to get into the
growth test and a lot of the filth
that's out there that the eyes see
things that Muslims should be far away
from you know explicit you know I'm
talking about both rated R even rated
some of the things that are rated R that
would directly from the eyes to the
heart does modern day psychology
psychiatrists will they tell you to stay
away from some of these things or some
even the you know the the songs that are
out there with the 50 cents the Lady
Gaga's and stuff can you sit with a
psychiatrist and he'll tell you like you
need to stop listening to uh to Chris
Brown you need to you know as uh will
they touch upon these things or so
that's what I mean that's what I mean
the difference between your modern day
or even almost trained in modern day
psychology to Islamic psychology I think
where the difference is is that there's
going to be limitations right where that
person may not be focused on the
spiritual hearts and its purification so
they may not be able to say something or
willing to say something like stop
listening to that music right but in
Islamic psychology understanding that
everything's connected and the physical
metaphysical heart is really what we're
trying to get at and purify here then
yes you would find that the Islamic
psychologists would say maybe what
you're putting into your ears and
listening to it is causing a kind of
insanity right of like a kind of
dissonance right like you're listening
to something that literally is Haram to
act upon so why put that into your ears
right why put that into and even the you
know Allah tells us about eating right
like it's like why are you putting
anything other than that into your body
right if it because if Allah has
commanded it and you do other than it
then clearly it's going to shift you
away from kind of that centered self
that we're trying to get to
can can people be led to a position of
like you said you're listening to a
would you think an insane person and now
you think you're not going to go insane
so this is this is a really this is an
important thing to to remember this is
uh powerful let's say you've gone
through you've gone through many of the
modern day
strategies you've done so many of the
other things and I and we understand
some people jump on what I'm going to
show you maybe ahead of everything else
and some would kind of dismiss this but
where would you say is a is a nice
balance Okay so we've exhausted all
means and now we come to another area
that modern day Psychiatry really
doesn't accept but we as Muslims do that
these things do happen we have in the
morning we have a Cod we have certain
certain duas of God that we say to
protect us from the Satanic evil forces
that are out here now this is
interesting this is a Christian who's
talking about this and then they
actually you know we think this a lot of
stuff is far-fetched but they actually
caught on tape what might be surprising
even to you that in modern times that
people are actually doing this the enemy
is so blatant with his devices that at
this point there's daylight witchcraft
happening they don't even have to
conform to Darkness anymore they don't
even have to come out and creep out in
the night they because we're so
desensitized to Witchcraft witches are
actually going into supermarkets in
broad daylight and putting curses on
food look at this right now
one prayer from a Christian and you're
getting arrested you give out a Bible
they will actually arrest you but see a
witch come into a shop and start cursing
the Breads and putting on the honey like
this person is literally putting a cast
on bread and honey and regular everyday
items in ASDA like
and it's just nothing and people are
just walking around I don't even know if
the person was reported we actually need
to be interceding and praying over our
food no we don't live in fear no we're
not intimidated no we're not scared
people who are gone that's my reaction I
right away think like you cannot take
for granted or miss the simple things
like the three course
sure you know 100 times
you know you have the you protected
people take these things for granted you
know being under would do what are your
thoughts no no incredibly important
incredibly important what are your
thoughts seeing like in supermarkets
where you would actually have type of
people doing these things you know over
the food and subhanallah I would say
it's as old as time it's as old as time
this was now it's you know yeah exactly
the prophet salallahu alaihi wasallam
specifically instructed us to protect
ourselves from the scene and the Unseen
and people have a really hard time with
what is this unseen and it's and it's um
you don't know like you don't if
something like this is like you weren't
there when it happened necessarily so
you don't know and there are other
things that we don't force is
essentially that we don't know when
somebody you know we talk about like
iron the evil eye right yeah and I know
a lot of people try to blame everything
on the iron but the reality is not
everything is to be blamed on it yeah
whether or not it's dying we're told to
read our puts right to read the three
we're also told to read right to protect
ourselves and our families from anything
that could be harmful and so it's it's
part and parcel of our tradition to
protect ourselves from the scene and the
Unseen and um subhanallah I think it's a
it's it's a good reminder to continue to
do so so what at what point do you you
after you've exhausted everything do you
have you determined sometimes that okay
we've done everything can this person
had been maybe possessed by a gin or
something you know what I know after
stringent you know
um
therapies and whatever else you go
through but have you ever seen like you
know that it's this is this is the case
this is it actually and have you ever
witnessed that you've been a part of
maybe say Iraqi and someone's who's you
know uh recited Quran and somebody after
that maybe the Jinn left have you ever
and we and we understand that some
people you should not get to a point
where you just you know right away your
you know you're you're blaming this at
the start of it you know what I mean
that's what I appreciate by what you're
saying brother Eddie super appreciated
because I have patients come often in
their families and they'll say
um but it's definitely gin and you know
it's interesting conversation often with
Muslims when we have this because that
could be a dark hole you know it's never
ending you know what I mean you know and
what I say to them I say the reality is
I'm not a gin doctor I'm a psychiatrist
and so what I'm able to do though is and
I'm very happy to refer them to any of
the shield in our community who are able
to read the Quran dude help that person
we with the understanding that they
would also in parallel be able to seek
out this mental health psychiatric
treatment here's why Islamic sure but
here's what I want to say the reason for
that is we know that so many people will
go straight to only doing Quran and
while for some people as you mentioned
this may be useful it's one of the Shia
actually did an incredible study I don't
know if you've seen the study but it was
actually he took uh Phillips took all of
these cases of Jinn that were brought to
the shoe have you seen the study so
interesting they were brought to shuke
and he said he kind of Quantified all of
these cases and after he looked at all
of them he actually found that a very
high percentage I forget the percentage
maybe 97 was actually psychiatric in
origin
yes his research and he said that the
Rarity may have binge
you know Supernatural cause but the vast
majority and the ordinary everyday kind
of cases related to even psychosis was
actually something psychiatric and
origin a biological origin and that was
really important I think eye-opening for
so many people including the to say look
let's make sure that we have a good
partnership with the mental health
providers to say let them deal with
what's actually part of their domain and
let's make sure in parallel to make sure
that there is for each and every one of
these individuals because you can't go
wrong with Quran it's the sin of the
Prophet salallahu right and stick to the
prescription that Allah the almighty the
Creator prescribed praying five times a
day minimum
making sure you're staying away from
toxic
things or influences and people and
environment this I mean you don't want
to be going to a nightclub where you got
all shaytans in there true you think
you're gonna keep your sanity right and
in addition if it is a actual
condition medical condition the prophet
salallahu was very clear on this when he
was asked by the sahaba should we seek
out treatment if we're ill and he said
very clearly he said
seek out treatments o Servants of Allah
foreign
and so the reality is if there is
illnesses that exist on Earth there's
also cures so seek out treatments and
his Sunnah was when he was Ill
sallallahu he took medicine like he
actually took treatment in addition to
prayer and I think that's what's very
important and sometimes missing for some
of our community members I have a couple
more questions for you do you feel now
to be talking about mental health do you
feel that now uh what's what's been the
reception now from the Muslim Community
do is the Muslim Community
um accepting to this term mental health
issues problems are they in denial is
there something that's now when you
mentioned Islamic history with it is it
something that's being more acceptive so
it's interesting I think in the last
um definitely five years ten years
definitely more so than ever before
certainly from when I was growing up
there's much more acceptance I won't say
it's everywhere I think there's pockets
of acceptance and I also think that now
you have for example next year at
Stanford University we're going to be
hosting the annual Muslim mental health
conference which is in its 16th year and
so if you think about that my lab itself
the muslimental health and Islamic
psychology Lab at Stanford is going into
its 10th year mashallah I think all the
research and all the work that's been
happening in that decade has really
changed the tides in this conversation
there's still much more so much more
work to do I think I think when Muslims
start to understand their legacy their
Heritage they're very proud of it
they're willing to not only kind of
accept it but also know it but to revive
it and realize that we've always been at
the Forefront of anything called mental
health because we understood holistic
health and wellness
there there's much more of an acceptance
of it so many more people are choosing
this as a career I didn't choose this as
a career I feel like my story has come I
came to this completely in a different
way unexpectedly subhanallah and Allah
is the best of planners but so many
people Muslims today are choosing this
as a career and I think it's powerful
that you're going to have Muslims that I
hope are kind of practicing their Gene
understanding their faith and actually
wanting to help people in mental health
so I think we're going to see more and
more of this as we go forward okay so we
have some couple questions that just
came in and then we'll conclude how do
we stop blaming shaytan when things
don't go our way and we don't have
control I hear this often this is the
work of shaytan shaitan broke up the
family you should be a better Muslim and
not listen to shaytan
well the shaitaan is always going to be
a play he says so in the Quran right we
know he's always at play absolutely
absolutely I mean the verse in the Quran
literally says that he's going to
literally sit in our path and continue
to cause us trouble until the last day
and this is almost like an oath that he
takes right and Allah says to him but
you won't be able to touch the Believers
right and so this is a beautiful thing
where despite all of his attempting
ultimately we have the tools to be able
to push this away and blaming shaitaan
on everything is very much like I was
saying earlier blaming shaytan on
everything or blaming thine or evil eye
on everything or blaming uh sahetra
Magic on everything there's some portion
of this to blame Shore but we also have
to ask ourselves where are we like
where's the self-blame in the story of
actually saying what did I contribute to
the story right and also what are other
factors that have happened so when you
kind of go to an extreme and say it's
all shaitaan that too is a very extreme
position that's not going to help you
see your role in something because
you're also externalized again to
everything and everyone else as opposed
to saying what did I do to cause the
troubles in my marriage right what did I
do to cause the troubles between these
two individuals that are not on good
terms so yeah there's there's definitely
a place in having a balance in this too
not taking him out of the equation but
realizing what are you putting forward
as well so in summary what would you
what kind of advice would you give for
someone who is struggling with anxiety
with so much stress they feel like this
life is just overbearing every day
waking up to the same drama drama and
whatnot and and they're they're kind of
stuck and they're listening they're
tuning in yeah and they they've been
classified with so many different
diagnoses maybe from different
psychiatrists one gave them uh two uh
labels the other one gave him another
one I think it's you know they're just
lost and thinking like where can I get
help they tuned in and where would they
start well the first thing I would say
is I would say I'm so glad that you're
here and tuning in alhamdulillah
secondly I would say I'm glad you're
asking these questions right I think it
starts with acknowledgment it actually
starts with saying I think there's
something off here that I'm continuously
waking up to a cycle of difficulty the
third is really reminding ourselves that
this is this is Allah calls this world
this Dunya that we live in the Abode of
tribulation it's meant to be a place of
trials and tribulations and so if you
are experiencing trial after trial it's
a very human thing that's happening
actually and every human has their own
set of Trials right in tribulations no
two humans are going to have the same
set of them but it's part of ardunia
because we know in the Hereafter in the
agenda all of this is going to go away
and I think that's what you hold on to
is realizing that there's something so
much better after this
fourth though is to say we know what the
Donia is we know kind of the elements of
what it makes up that these are trials
and tribulations what do I need to do to
get support and help and so I'm not so
much and I tell people this especially
my own patients I say I'm not so worried
about the actual classification the
actual the label right I'm concerned
about the aftermath right so what's
happening here so if you're so anxious
all the time so overwhelmed all the time
the label might be called anxiety but
what's actually happening and if they
say well what's happening is I can't
actually meet with my friends I can't be
able to go out and do things I'm stuck I
feel literally in a rut and I say well
that's what we need to work on right and
so getting the support that's actually
takes a lot of courage and to say let me
get help and support right part of it is
spiritual part of it is physical part of
his mental right part of it is cognitive
and emotional all of these come together
in order to support you so really the
fifth part of the story of the five that
I've just mentioned here is after
acknowledging that there's help needed
is actually taking the physical steps to
actually get that help and knowing where
to get the help and getting the best
help possible to me that is Insha'Allah
that Allah says you know if we take the
one step right towards him right which
is part of this right because he tells
us get help like the Hadith says get
help right and if you take the one step
he actually takes several and if you go
walking he comes running as the Hadith
says and it's a very powerful and very
beautiful thing to realize that Allah if
he sent you difficulty he's also going
to send you help and assistance
with difficulty comes ease and so I just
want to tell everybody if you are I
cannot leave without giving you a gift
if you are not yet
sometimeshow.com like therapists take
care of the postage and everything and
get it delivered to you
materials sometimes
happening
next time until then
and if you like this episode of the dean
show like this video
share this video far and wide and
support us on our patreon page so we can
continue this work thank you for tuning
in peace be with you assalamualaikum
never let go of prayer ever your
connection with your creator absolutely
it is an absolute must mashallah thank
you thank you very much
bless you and bless the dean show and
bless all the efforts that are happening
here in Charlotte thank you so much
and I'm so excited to be here at the
dean Center mashallah which is under
renovation and I can't wait to see
what's going to come inshallah there's
going to be a dawa Center there's a
Masjid there's a school in Islamic
school a gym and what we hope in
Charlotte will also have a mental health
part of this Center as well inshallah so
I'm asking you to please make sure that
you support this effort inshallah I
really hope that it spreads and really
the knowledge of Islam and people to
know more about Muslims in Islam through
this effort
I cannot leave without giving you a gift
if you are not yet Muslim and you tune
in to see what these Muslims are talking
about and you like a free copy of the
Quran go and visit thedeenshow.com we'll
take care of the postage and everything
and get it delivered to you and if you
still have some questions
about Islam call us at
1-800-662-4752 we'll see you next time
until then peace be with you
assalamualaikum