well I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez
we've been with you for 18 years as we
turn to another story yes now we turn to
the story of a University of California
scientists who discovered that a popular
herbicide may have harmful effects on
the endocrine system Tyrone Hayes who
first hired in
1997 by a company that later became Agri
bus Giants senta they asked him to study
their prod their product atrazine a
pesticide that is applied to more than
half the corn crops in the United States
and widely used on golf courses and
Christmas Tree farms but after Hayes
found results that the the manufacturer
did not expect that atrazine causes
sexual abnormalities and frogs and could
cause the same problems for humans senta
refused to allow him to publish his work
this was the start of an epic feud
between the scientist and the
corporation now a new article on the New
Yorker magazine uses court documents
from a class action lawsuit against
senta to show how it sought to prevent
vent the Environmental Protection Agency
from Banning the profitable chemical
which is already banned by the European
Union to start with the company's public
relations team drafted a list of four
goals reporter Rachel Aviv writes quote
the first was quote discredit hay in a
spiral bound notebook sentus
Communications manager Sher Ford who
referred to Hayes by his initials wrote
that the company could prevent sighting
of th data by revealing him as
non-credible he was a frequent topic of
conversation at company meetings senta
looked for ways to exploit hay faults
problems if th involved in Scandal in
viros will drop him Ford wrote well for
more we're joined by th himself that's
right Tyrone Hayes is with us professor
of Integrative biology at the University
of California Berkeley joining us from
the campus TV station right now in
Berkeley welcome to democracy Now um can
you tell us what happened to you how you
originally tied to senta the research
you did and what prevented you from
originally publishing
it well here at Berkeley I was a a new
assistant professor I was already
studying the effects of hormones and the
effects of chemicals that interfere with
hormones on amphibian development and I
was approached by the manufacturer and
asked to study the effects of arrine uh
the herbicide on frogs and after I dis
discovered that it interfered with male
development and caused
uh males to turn into females to develop
eggs the company tried to prevent me
from publishing and from discussing that
work with other scientists outside of
their panel what was the process within
the company as you raised your findings
uh what was their immediate reaction uh
to uh to what you had come
across well initially they seemed uh
sort of supportive um you know we design
more studies we design more analysis and
they encourage me to do more analysis
but as the further analysis uh just
supported the original finding they
became less interested in moving forward
very quickly and eventually they moved
to asking me to manipulate data or to
misrepresent data and ultimately they
told me I could not publish or could not
talk about the data outside of their
closed panel and uh Professor Hayes talk
about exactly what you found what were
the abnormalities you found in frogs the
genderbending nature of this drug
atrazine well initially we found that
the larynx or the voice box in exposed
males didn't grow properly and this was
an indication that the male hormone
testosterone was not being produced at
at appropriate levels and eventually we
found that not only did were these males
Demas or chemically castrated but they
also were starting to develop ovaries or
starting to develop eggs and eventually
we discovered that these males didn't
breed properly uh that some of the males
actually completely turned into females
so we had genetic males that were laying
eggs and reproducing as females and now
we're starting to show that some of
these males actually show um I guess
what we'd call homosexual Behavior they
actually prefer to mate with other males
and so where did you go with your
research uh well eventually what
happened was the EPA uh insisted that uh
the Environmental Protection Agency
assisted that the manufacturer released
me from the confidentiality contract and
we published our findings in pretty high
ranking journals such as proceedings to
the National Academy of Sciences we
published some work in uh nature we
published work in environmental health
perspectives which is a journal
sponsored by the National Institutes of
Health and when did you begin to get a
sense that the company was organizing a
campaign uh against you what were the
signs that you saw uh post the the
period when you be uh published your
findings uh before we published the
findings and before the EPA became
involved the company tried to purchase
the data they tried to give me a new
contract so that they would then control
the data and the experiments they
actually tried to get me to come and
visit the company to get control of
those data and when I refused I invited
them to the university I offered to
share data but they wanted to purchase
the data and then they actually as
mentioned in a New York article they
actually hired scientists to try to
refute the data or to pick apart the
data and eventually they hired
scientists to do experiments that they
claim refuted our data and and then that
escalated to the company actually Tim
pastur in particular um and others from
the company coming to presentations that
or lectures that I was giving to um make
handouts or to stand up and refute the
data and eventually even led to things
like threats of violence um Tim pestor
for example before I would give a talk
with uh would literally threaten whisper
in my ear that he could have me lynched
or he would quotes that he would send
some of his good old boys to show me
what it's like to be gay or at one point
he threatened my wife and my daughter
with with sexual violence uh he would
was for things like your wife's at home
alone right now how do you know I
haven't sent somebody there to take care
of her isn't your daughter there So
eventually it really slipped into some
you know pretty pretty scary
tactics um so what did you do I mean
you're actually I mean this is very
serious you could bring criminal charges
if you're being threatened and stalked
in this way
well uh initially I went to my vice
Chancellor here at the University I went
to my Dean I went to legal council here
at the University and I was told by
legal councel that well I was told first
of all by the Vice Chancellor for
research at the time that while you
publish the work it's over so I don't
understand what the problem is and I
tried to impress upon her uh Beth
Burnside at the time that you know that
it that it wasn't over that I was really
being pursued by by the manufacturer and
eventually uh when I spoke with the
lawyer here at the University univ I was
told that well I represent the
university and I protect the University
from liability you're kind of on your
own and and I remember I looked at him
and I said but the very University from
the Latin universitas is a collection of
Scholars of teachers and and students so
who is this entity to the university
that you represent that doesn't include
me but clearly there's some entity that
that that doesn't really include us the
professors and students and and doesn't
really protect our academic freedom I
think the way that it should I wanted to
ask you about one of of your critics
Elizabeth whan president of the American
Council on science and health when the
New York Times ran a critical story
about the herbicide as part of its toxic
water Series in 2009 she referred to its
reporting as quote all the News That's
fit to scare this is a clip of whan from
an interview on
MSNBC I I I very much disagree with the
New York Times story which is really
raising um concerns about a totally
bogus risk aine has been used for more
than in 50 years is very very tightly
regulated even the Environmental
Protection Agency which is not known for
soft pedaling about environmental
chemicals even they say it's safe well
it turns out that senta has been a
long-term Financial supporter of Wayland
organization the American Council on
science and health paying them at least
$100,000 uh your comments on on her
remarks well again they're paid remarks
and one of the most disheartening things
in the whole process is that many of my
critics you know it's one to be academic
if you come and say well we interpret
the data this way and we want to argue
about this point but these people really
didn't even have an opinion the these
opinions were written by the
manufacturer and they were paid to put
their names on them to endorse the
opinions of the manufacturer so you know
that's one of the most disheartening
things that that they were really just
personalities for sale um and many of
the things that that she's saying there
is just not true there any independent
study from any science scientist is not
funded by senta has found similar
problems with atrazine not just my work
on frogs but I've just published a paper
with 22 scientists from around the world
from 12 different countries who've shown
that atrazine causes sexual problems in
mammals and that atrazine causes sexual
problems in Birds amphibians fish so
it's not just my work in amphibian in
amphibians uh and also with regards to
the EPA one of the scientific advisory
panel members on the EPA That was
supposed to review aine turns out is
paid and works for senta so the whole
process was tainted and in fact the EPA
ignored the scientific advisory panels
opinion and actually decided to keep
adrine on the market and not to do any
more studies when that clearly wasn't
the recommendation of the scientific
advisory panel I wanted to go back to a
second to your remarks about your
University because obviously there are
many questions about uh major
universities around the country uh being
in some way or other supported
financially by the pharmaceutical or the
drug industry uh but you're at a
prestigious University one of the top
universities in the country at Berkeley
uh do you have some concerns about how
uh uh how your University responded to
your in your time of need and your the
attack on your uh academic
Integrity well they're not just my
concerns there are many at the
University who fear that the university
is just becoming a corporation um you
know we're a public university that used
to get a lot more support from the state
uh in my lifetime tuition was free for
students tuition's been rising and it's
really an effort to monetize things and
that includes scientific researchers
there's a lot of pressure on us not just
to be Scholars and to teach and to do
research but also to bring in funds that
will support the university so there's
some sentiment from the University that
if you are raising a concern potentially
that might cause the university to lose
support or to lose funders um then you
won't necessarily get the support on the
campus that you need and we we've SE
seen this over and over again a
colleague of mine ignasio chapella for
example was in a fairly huge battle over
the same company naris and its
influences over scientific research at
the University can you talk about the
significance of senta first of all is it
a significant Presence at the University
at UC Berkeley but also uh the
significance of senta as a pesticide
company and all that it makes how
powerful is
it well when they were when I was
originally
Consulting for the manufacturer they
were nardis at the time and nardis had a
a big influence on the campus there was
a major deal on the campus I understand
a fifth of the biological sciences
support was coming from nardis and at
the time they both made pesticides and
they made Pharmaceuticals one of my big
concerns is that as of the year 2000
prior to the year 2000 the nard is not
only made atrazine which is used on corn
of course which is an herbicide but it
also induces an enzyme called aromatase
it causes you to make too much estrogen
and it's now been shown that this
herbicide atrazine and this mechanism is
potentially involved in development of
breast cancer for example up until 2000
the company also made a chemical called
elol which did exactly the opposite it
blocked aromatase it blocked this enzyme
it blocked estrogen production and this
chemical elol is the number one
treatment for breast cancer so this
company was simultaneously in 2000
making a chemical that induced estrogen
and promoted breast cancer and making a
chemical that blocked estrogen
production and was being used to treat
uh breast cancer so there's a clear
conflict of interest there a clear
problem the other problems are that uh
something like 90% of the seeds that we
use to produce our food right now are
owned by the big six pesticide companies
so again there's a conflict of interest
where the companies um have a an
interest
in um I guess getting us addicted to the
pesticides to grow the seeds that they
also own um and sent of course is one of
those big six one of the big pesticide
or Agri business companies and a New
Yorker article uh that uh delves into
your story also says that you uh you
came to find out that the company was
also reading your emails could you talk
about
that well I originally I had some
suspicion that they had hacked into my
email and I originally found out there
was a a professor at Minnesota and I was
going there to give a big lecture and
this professor in the School of Public
Health uh Deb Deb dumasi said that she
happened to be standing in line at the
airport flying back to Minnesota and
just by coincidence she was standing
behind somebody who was having a
conversation on his cell phone and who
identified himself as an employee of
senta and he made the statement we have
access to his email we know where he is
at all times so it wasn't just paranoia
on my part I had Direct um evidence that
they had access to my email and and at
the time I I maintained a second and a
third email that that I could keep keep
private and I actually used that
information that they had access to my
email to send them information and
sometimes false information um for
example booking plane tickets through
that email because then I could send
them to the wrong place so they wouldn't
necessarily be there to follow me when I
was going to speak in other places I
mean Professor Hayes this is stunning
stuff that came out in this class action
suit the suit wasn't brought by you but
the documents that came out that
referenced you Tyrone Hayes th and
trying to discredit you trying to
discredit your family um talk then that
was a lawsuit that involved uh atrazine
contaminating Water Supplies but what
was your reaction when you saw this you
suspected this you felt you were being
followed you felt you were they were
trying to discredit you but now you have
the
documents well you know it's funny I you
know the the way the article reads that
you know I suspected I mean I knew I
knew Tim pestor I knew Sher Ford I knew
many of the individual ual who have
followed me around I knew who they were
I knew they had access to my email um
you know so for me I knew that these
things were happening this guy would
directly come up and make lwd comments
to me and threatening comments to me but
it was the kind of thing where you know
it sounded like something out of a movie
I couldn't go and tell my colleagues
like they're following me around and you
know they're into my Emil did you put on
a tape
recorder uh you know what I found here's
how I'll answer that question what I
found out that it was much more powerful
for me to suggest and have them think
that I recorded everything than for them
to actually know what I recorded and
that actually became sort of my
protection so when this guy came up and
threatened me and threatened my wife to
then go back and go oh my god did he
record that or not so it was much more
powerful for me to have them think that
but you can see in there are handwritten
notes that they were very concerned that
I was recording conversations there's
notes that they wanted to trap me to
entice me to Sue and these kinds of
things and my reaction now to see it all
in the New Yorker and for you know all
that this open for the world to see is
um there two reactions one is I can't
believe they wrote these kinds of things
down right that you're plotting to to
you know investigate me and investigate
my school and investigate my hometown
and all these kinds of things and you
wrote it down but my other response is
this is quite analogous to you know when
you hear these stories of somebody who's
been in jail for murder for 10 years and
then the DNA evidence gets them out you
know and you ask them are you happy well
of course I'm happy but I've also been
in jail for 10 years you know what I
mean so of course I'm happy now that
these documents have all been revealed
but it's also been a very difficult time
for me for the last and for my family
you know for the last 10 to 15 years for
my students as well for the last 10 to
15 years to be pursued this way and to
be under a microscope this way and to be
feel threatened this way for so long as
we wrap up what's happening with
atrazine today where does it
stand it's still on the market uh we're
still studying it um a number of studies
are still coming out from around the
world one recent study has shown that
male babies that are exposed in utero to
arrine their genitals don't develop
proper L their penis doesn't develop
properly or they get micro phas there's
studies showing that sperm count goes
down when you expose to atrazine and
this is not just laboratory animals or
animals in the wild this is also humans
we use the same hormones that animals do
for our reproduction and it's a big
threat to environmental health and
public health I want to thank you very
much for being with us Tyrone Hayes a
professor of Integrative biology at the
University of California Berkeley has
devoted the past 15 years to studying
atrin a widely used herbicide made by
agenta we link to the article in the New
Yorker magazine that reveals how the
company tried to discredit Professor
Hayes after his research showed atrazine
causes sexual abnormalities and frogs
and could cause the same problems for
humans the article is called a valuable
reputation after Tyrone Hayes said that
a chemical was harmful its maker pursued
him this is democracy now we'll be back
in a
minute