guys i'm about to give bismil
alhamdulillah assalamu alaikum greetings
of peace how you doing
nuser nas i'm about to give bill gates
himself a dead fly as a gift i'm going
to share with you and bill gates
something you guys should really look
into as it has to do with the subject
you guys are talking about the fly but
first
let me tell you about flies
this could be something also really big
my friend because we are celebrating
something big we're going to be talking
about the flies in general that's
mentioned in this hadith
by the last the final messenger sent to
mankind prophet muhammad peace and
blessings be upon him that for many
years didn't make sense to a lot of
people
and had many people just denied a hadith
altogether and so for some strange
reason shook many people up but for
others for the majority they understood
that this was authentic it was indeed
from the last and final messenger pro
muhammad peace and blessed be upon him
he doesn't speak from his wins and
desires they knew something was there
they didn't have the proper tools to be
in to go ahead and investigate but today
we do and we're going to be sharing some
of that with you bill gates and
everybody else who's out there now nas
nuser is it did i pronounce forgive me
if i didn't pronounce that right sorry i
missed you while you're in chicago thank
you for the kind words i feel bad that
we get a chance to get together but
inshallah god willing next time you're
in town let's make it happen and if you
send invitation we can also have you on
the d show
[Music]
are you ready
[Music]
just one very very important point
we don't base
our reality that this is indeed from the
crater based on scientific discoveries
not at all just like at one point in
time human beings thought scientists
thoughts before 1920s that the earth was
eternal but later it came to know be
known that it actually had a beginning
and the universe was expanding but the
quran
god almighty allah the creator heavens
and earth actually talks about this in
the quran so at one point when human
beings were stuck believing something
that wasn't true but that was the
majority view
we didn't go ahead and change
our view because the quran since the
beginning talked about the expanding
universe and the universe had a
beginning actually it was going against
science at that particular point in time
and you have 80 90 percent of scientific
facts meant latest discoveries that are
confirmed in the quran too many to list
but just for example you have the
development of a human being from the
embryonics early stages it's confirmed
it's in the quran
you have the two barriers of the two
types of water in the seas it is there
in the quran latest discoveries latest
science confirms this the mountains
acting as pegs stabilizers for the earth
how did prophet muhammad know these
things it's mentioned in the quran the
splitting of the moon it's mentioned in
the quran prophecies things that are to
come in the future it's mentioned in the
quran like i said too many things to
list that's not what this particular
episode's about but we're talking about
our subhanallah moment certain details
now that for instance are out there that
science is is just coming up to speed
with and there's some studies with and
that's we're going to share
this in this particular episode with nas
and the others and just another
important point before we bring on
our medical professional a doctor
someone who's into everything science
this is very important that because in
hadith paraphrasing it talks about if a
fly was to land in your drink dip it
again before you drink it and whatnot
but at the end of the day look
you know some people might say like wow
that's a fly why would you do that some
people don't have
the convenience
of just throwing water away or throwing
a specific drink away that might be a
meal for many people in certain parts of
the world impoverished parts of the
world so now you can choose to go ahead
and dip that in because one has the
ailment and one has the cure
and we're going to get deeper into this
but you can go ahead you don't have to
you can go ahead and chug the whole
thing out but let's say you're somebody
in an impoverished part of the world and
you just got yourself a hold of a drink
a meal that's in a drink and a fly came
in look at this and now this can end up
contaminating it but now you heard of
this hadith and now it tells you to go
ahead and push it further before you
drink it because the other part of the
wing has the cure subhan allah that's
the subhanallah moment and alhamdulillah
let's go ahead and dig deeper into this
with our guests who will help us
to understand this a little bit better
with the latest discoveries of science
and the scientific studies that revolve
around this we have dr hussaim al-harash
muslim from brooklyn new york with an
interest in everything science salaam
alaikum how are you doing my brother all
right
how are you doing today
so tell us a little bit about this uh
hadith that talks about the fly
sure sure yeah i mean
interestingly uh the hadith itself has
been controversial for some time
from both an islamic and a scientific
perspective so you know if you
do some research online and look at some
of the
phds and dissertations that people have
written about from the islamic
perspective you can see that they've
gone back and looked at this hadith for
reasons before it became a scientific uh
sort of interest um so i came across a
couple of dissertations that in papers
that people wrote
where they kind of looked at you know
just
whether the hadith is authentic or not
that's the sort of the first step there
i think about a couple of narrations of
the hadith about 13 but
for the most part what we can see is
that it's found
in both
at least um and it is considered
authentic
so now once you sort of determined that
the hadith itself is authentic
now you have to
reconcile it with how you understand and
and and how you accept right so
historically even you know historically
from a long time ago
muslim scholars have documented people
being um and again when we say people
it's like people who have a have a faith
or a problem with the way that they can
sort of accept hadith don't make sense
of them
have issues with this hadith you know so
commentators have said things like
you know how could it be that this fly
that is dirty
if you soak it into the fluid more is
clean
and how is it that you know the fly gets
to decide which part of it is dirty
which part of it is clean and how is it
that there's a part that's a a cure for
a part that's an illness
and
understandably if you look at the muslim
history of 1400 years of history
long predates germ theory
and people did not really have an
understanding of uh you know bacteria
viruses
they didn't really understand how
diseases were transmitted
now we have a better understanding and
now we're starting to have a better
insight into how this could possibly
work so
long history of
kind of this hadith being looked at from
different perspectives
so more recently
um
there are different approaches of trying
to understand what's going on here so
the first kind of group of people who've
looked at this have said okay well
let's just
see if you know how this manifests
because
we think that you know in the modern
understanding we think this means um of
the fly being dipped into the solution
so the
says if the fly lands in in your soup
you know before you let it fly away push
it in
and
so one way of possibly making sense of
this
in our modern understanding
is to say well maybe they were talking
was talking about germs
and so
muslim scientists in modern times have
basically done experiments and there are
multiple experiments on this topic that
have been documented and published
basically take solutions you know some
piece on papers look at water some
papers look at milk
and they
say um let's let the fly stand in the
solution
and then let's
dunk the fly into a different solution
and let's see what grows out of both
these solutions and then do this over
and over again to see
what grows in one and doesn't grow in
the other one and
more than one paper from different
places in the world including you know
i'll share some resources later but we
looked at in egypt and saudi arabia and
malaysia
i think i even saw one in the
philippines where basically they said
look you know we've repeatedly
demonstrated that taking
you know whether it's water milk saline
solution any kind of liquid if the fly
just lands in it um and we see if how
much bacteria will grow from there and
we compare that to milk water saline
whatever that we dunk it in
constantly show that the one where it's
dunked in
grows less bacteria
in other experiments they start with
solution that's already contaminated
they start with a solution that that
already has some sort of a bacteria in
it the one paper that did this looked at
e coli
and they again dunked the fly to see to
show that
even if the fly never stepped in the
solution just dunking it in does seem to
have some antibacterial properties
so
other papers have taken this a step
further and said well let's try to
understand how this is going on and
they've tried to propose mechanisms
mechanisms like you know we see we have
this effect that we see it
it it kind of agrees in one way with
what he said told us
but is it because of you know a fungus
is it because of a
bacteriophage is it something else and
different mechanisms have been proposed
i think the three or four sort of most
popular ones
um so one of them is that the bacteria
you know they fly sorry as it flies
around lands in filth that's what
bacteria do they land in whether it's
feces or rotting
garbage
pick up bacteria on their feet
and then if they land somewhere else
they move that bacteria around and that
maybe the bacteria that lives on the fly
itself
combats that bacteria that's on its feet
so that's one possibility so you have
bacteria that kind of opposes other
bacteria
another possibility is that it's not
bacteria but it's a fungus and the the
fly
encourages
a certain type of fungus to grow on its
body
and this fungus
opposes bacteria this is not unusual in
science because um that's what
penicillin is i mean penicillin is
produced by a fungus our first or not
maybe not the first but some of the
earliest antibiotics were derived from
fungus so this is kind of easy to
understand
another possibility and this has been
documented in not bad not in flies but
in other insects so the cicadas for
example paper published in nature
um showed that the the wing itself the
wings themselves the way that their
structure is
causes bacteria to die when it touches
them it kind of physically shreds
bacteria now this was not demonstrated
in the house fly but it's another theory
that's been proposed and finally there's
the theory of a fog or maybe basically a
virus that affects
bacteria just like viruses can affect
people viruses can affect bacteria and
then maybe there's a fudge that lives on
the fly and that causes the flying deck
now muslim scientists have looked at uh
these possibilities and there are papers
out there i don't know that there's a
conclusive one meaning that there's one
that says hey this is the way it works
and this is the final answer but there
are theories out there
and there are different scientists sort
of trying to explain it in different
ways what we know from the published
literature is that there is in fact an
effect
that a fly
a solution that has the whole flight
dunked into it will grow less bacteria
than a different fly
but
that does leave us with
a couple of issues i mean we're here
we're assuming that
was talking about bacteria we don't know
that that's the case though i said we've
been talking about something that we
haven't discovered yet right let's not
forget for the last thousand years
we didn't know about bacteria and people
didn't understand hadith we discovered
bacteria we're saying that it's talking
about bacteria but it may be something
that we haven't even learned about yet
but assuming we're talking about
bacteria
talks about
one wing being different from the other
way
these theories for the most part don't
really differentiate between the wings
there's one paper from saudi arabia
where the researchers actually
clipped the wings
and they dunked only the right wing
of the fly the hadith doesn't say the
right wing it says one wing will have
the cure one wing will have the disease
these researchers dunk just the right
wing and they showed that yes with the
right wing less bacteria grew
so that's great
but what they didn't do in the paper and
that's weakness in their research and
i'd have to reach out to them to see you
know why they didn't do this is they
should have really done both wings they
should have done the right wing and then
done the left wing on the same flight to
show that there's a difference they
didn't do that
what the
uh what the true wisdom behind the
hadith is
you know as as muslims these things for
us
we see them and we appreciate them we
say well subhan allah said i've said
something that for more than a thousand
years nobody could make sense out of
and people ridiculed it even people that
were living in muslim lands at the time
they said you know like how it is how is
it that a dirty fly is cleaner to the
food if you don't get more it doesn't
make sense it's it's not logical
and the people who took it you know as
faith as they said this is hadith and
they just accepted it now they at least
have a way of explaining it now as
muslims for us this is you know we say
subhanallah we look at it glory be to
god our creator
he he gave his messenger and his servant
you know information that now we are
only beginning to understand and maybe
this is the way to understand it um but
it may not be the actual final answer
but it is an interesting
observation that we've made and
as we've as we've mentioned before there
are many similar examples like this in
the prophetic traditions where the
rosary sam gives advice that that for a
very long time we don't have an
explanation for it from different
perspectives some of it's psychological
some of it medical and later on we start
to understand that
in reality there was a wisdom there
just a couple questions before we
conclude so
the conclusion at the end is that there
is a differentiation in the two wings
one has the ailment one has the cure is
what's the conclusion at the end
most of the papers don't look at the
wings
most of the papers look at just
fly just landing on a solution just
stepping on it sitting on it
versus fly being dunked into it
most papers show a difference between
that
and they show that if you dunk a fly
into the solution actually even one
paper said they showed they said look
here's a solution with just a fly that
stood in it it grew
you know i don't know the exact number
we'll say a thousand bacterial colonies
dunked it once it's seven hundred seven
hundred so it's less
dunked it twice it's five hundred even
less
dunked it three times it's even less and
they showed that the more times you
dumped it
the more this antibacterial effect
occurred antibacterial for the layman
means what
so i mean bacteria is an organism that
lives
so anti so it's anti it's fighting the
bacteria
so that there's something yeah so that
so that would translate to fighting the
disease
in layman's terms no
well i mean the bacteria itself can
cause disease yeah i mean um the fda
says you know like a good percentage up
to 20 maybe higher of food borne
illnesses are probably you know
transmitted or could be transmitted by
flies you know you put a bowl of
macaroni salad out
and you turn away and a fly that was
just
you know swimming in something rancid
outside comes and lands in that food
that fly may have been in feces may have
been in you know rotting food or even
just dirt picks up bacteria
now brings this bacteria into the food
and deposits it there
this bacteria could be e coli it could
be salmonella could be many different
organisms that the fly picked up and it
just moved it from place to place and
now that food is contaminated and the
hadith basically says that if you
observe this
and you want to eat the food that's not
saying you have to do this and eat the
food but if you want to eat the food
then before you eat it don't just let
the fly go actually push the fly into
the food first so you get that
anti-bacterial element
when you do that
that's what the research suggests that's
the that's research that's then when you
do that what
then when you do that when they did that
it experiments and then they took
that food where they didn't use food
they used like sugar water or you know
or milk they used milk in one of the
experiments and then you see how many
bacteria are in there
it's less than if you had not done wow
subhanallah so there's something here
yeah
obviously we don't uh base our faith on
science science changes and develops and
whatnot people who heard this hadith
hundred two three four five hundred
years ago they accepted it because it
linked back to the prophet last and
final messenger sent to mankind muhammad
peace and blessings be upon him they
didn't get their
their faith shaken their iman shaken but
it's unfortunate many muslims now they
can't explain something away and now
they have no you know science and
whatnot and then they just fall apart
it's sad to say but here for even those
people who are kind of on the border you
got no excuse now you got uh something
at least you can go back to
yeah at least for this one i mean you
know a lot of things in our faith
there may be beyond our understanding
subhanallah in this example we came to
understand it you know and like i said
there may be deeper understanding that
we still have at least there's something
here but
you know for the people who accepted it
they went out they were right all along
alhamdulillah does this also last
question does this also link back to a
german site german a scientist we often
hear that some german scientists did
many tests and confirmed this is this
part of that research
that you're citing some german
scientists
i'm not sure which specific scientists
uh have done this um i i could look at
it but i could say that um in the last
two years there's more than ten papers
probably published on this on this ten
okay so if if there wasn't pretty it's a
pretty active
topic of interest these days
in the muslim world so if you look at
you know
you're not going to find in the papers
that i found were not like you know new
england journal of medicine or but they
were published in in journals in
peer-reviewed journals where legitimate
research statistics you know the full
kind of gamut somebody went there did
the work did the experiment
had the results
wrote it up sent it for people to review
it to make sure that their results and
their methodology and their analysis
made sense that's the peer review
process and then published it in the
journal um they're published in you know
journals of microbiology uh from muslim
countries journals of medicine from
muslim countries um and you know so
there is an interest in there and i and
i think it makes sense and here's here's
why i think it makes sense
antimicrobials antibiotics the medicines
that we use today
almost all medicines that we use
originally came from something natural
what i mean by that is you know people
used to chew on a leaf
they found that this leaf relieved their
pain
scientists looked at that figured hey in
this leaf is a chemical
let's take that chemical out they called
it aspirin right
scientists noticed that hey when there's
a fungus that grows
that was growing it killed all the
bacteria in my in my dish
they investigated it they discovered
penicillin
i think that here the scientists that
are looking at this are saying
we don't know why we don't know exactly
how but we can say that
we're looking at this because of this
hadith if there wasn't a hadith they
would never even look at this
but because we have this hadith we're
taking the flies and we're dunking it in
you know in in these solutions and it's
killing the bacteria
so we're interested in knurling why
because so there might be a benefit to
society they may find that hey the fly
makes a chemical
or the fly carries of you know a virus
that kills bacteria
find it identify it isolate it put it in
a factory make gallons of it and cure
disease
that's really the interest of why people
are looking at this if there's a way to
kill bacteria that we have not
discovered yet it may be there
and because of this hadith they're
looking in that direction and they're
finding results they just don't know why
yet all right last question if the bill
gates ask as many questions as you want
uh if the bill gates of the world and
nas who recently did a program on this
with bill gates if any of them are
interested now and they want to go ahead
and explore this more because they're
talking about he you know healing people
in south africa or for any of the
diseases out there and flies being
responsible and they just hear the term
fly now there's this hadith and whatnot
and how where could you point them in
what direction they can go look at some
of these studies
so i'll share i'll share a list of the
studies uh with you so they can at least
start there they should come watch the
dean show and i'll give you a list of
the studies that i found interesting on
this topic they're all new um there are
there are studies on this topic going
back 30 years
um some of the early work was you know i
think in the 90s some of the some
scientists started to look at this but
it's really picked up in the recent
years so at least they can start there
does that answer your question yeah
we'll get those from you and we'll leave
in the description inshallah
jazakallah
thank you so much um so we bought a we
brought a uh
a uh
person in the field of science uh dr sam
thank you so much for being with us and
going over this with us you're very
you're very welcome can i just give a
disclaimer so absolutely i'm not a uh a
muslim scholar
so take anything that i say about islam
please with a grain of salt and verify
it and confirm it um i am a medical
doctor
but my specialty is
pediatric critical care
and this this this topic specifically
um the experts in this topic would
really be a microbiologist so i i know
about this because i have an interest in
it and i've read up on it but
technically it's not my area of
expertise so just you know so if anybody
finds something that is better than what
i've said please take that and accept it
i
and then and share it with me i won't be
offended absolutely and the people the
people who do the study obviously they
were the experts in these fields yes yes
they wrote it up they're mostly
microbiologists microbiologists who
study people who study bacteria really
and just one last again i keep saying
one last thing but this is obviously
obviously if this was something that at
the beginning of one study or two if
there was nothing there there wouldn't
be further studies right right
well i think i think you know so let's
let's look back and let's put our mind
ourselves in the minds of the first
person right at some point 40 50 years
ago
some guy saw this hadith who maybe was a
microbiologist and said
let me check to see if there's something
there
you know let me let me we don't know
what russia was talking about you know a
cure and a poison
but let me see if if it makes a
difference
for bacteria
tried this and there was a difference
now
since then people have caught on and
their motivations could be you know
different motivations some of them may
have seen that initial paper and said i
don't believe it
let me verify it you know if you don't
believe a study you go and you try to
duplicate it to show that it doesn't
happen and maybe they were surprised
they tried to duplicate it to show that
it wasn't real and they were surprised
maybe they said you know i i agree with
it but let me take it to the next step
he just showed that bacteria grew
i want to take it to the next step and
see what kind of bacteria we have better
tools now i want to do genetic analysis
see what's specifically different about
the bacteria
and maybe there is funding i mean if
i don't i don't you know the papers i
saw the funding was not um corporate but
it's not out of the question for a
corporation to come and say hey
you know we'll give you some money do
some research for us if you find
anything it's ours we patent it um
that's not out of the question i don't
know that that's the case in any of
these i think they were publicly
publicly funded by the governments of
these muslim countries but aloha i
haven't seen every single paper out
there
but i was surprised i i've looked at
this topic years ago
and years ago it was more much more uh
much fewer papers to look at
and in our conversation recently
i i've done some more looking and just
to sort of see like oh what's happening
with the field and i was impressed to
see you know more papers being being put
out there part of that is
you know as the muslim world kind of
adopts
um you know you know a more sort of
academic rigorous approach to research
maybe that's part of it maybe it's just
it's really becoming popular i mean
another possibility is that we are in a
world where we're facing
worsening antibiotic resistance
the bacteria you know the antibiotics
that we used 50 60 years ago are not
working as well
the bacteria are getting used to them
they're getting resistant
and we're in a struggle right now to
develop new
um antibiotics you know penicillin used
to work for everything or for a lot of
things it doesn't
you know then we've gone to you know
multiple new generations of drugs we
keep changing them and updating them and
the bacteria just get used to it and
they adapt and they become resistant
so there is a more interest now to look
for anything that could possibly kill
bacteria and that may be motivating some
of these people as well okay one last
thing was this one of those because
obviously we don't base our faith our
iman on a lot of these details we base
it on the quran which is a living
miracle
you have evidence in there that is
indeed from the creator of the heavens
and earth when you study the life of
prophet muhammad you see that there's no
way that he could have gotten this from
anyone other than from the divine the
creator heavens and earth you look at
the living miracle of the quran the
prophecies you know and all the other
testable evidence that that's there but
then you have these subhanallah moments
right you have all these like i just did
a program
last week and i talked about the bbc
article that talks about the sugar
er rubbing in the baby's mouth and we
know we have the date you know from that
you put to regulate the sugar yeah that
that helps to prevent the uh premature
babies from having brain damage is it
was a subhanallah moment right it's like
wow we have this we don't base our mind
around this but it's like
just another proof upon proof that he's
not speaking from himself you know of
his desires because he'd get called out
and things would just fall apart but was
this another one of those subhanallah
moments for you
absolutely i mean you know
for me um at one point
i i i delved into the world of atheism a
little bit
before i became a muslim and and what
you what you realize is that um
these kinds of things you know and and
maybe maybe as muslims we are so
happy when we come across these things
that we try to make them the crux of the
religion
the scientific miracles are not the crux
of the religion the quran like you said
the sunnah these are the crux of the
religion these are the things that we in
our religion
have value
but
if the
creator
you know is is directly sending a
message to the quran or
inspiring his messenger
to say something then we
expect for it to be accurate and if we
expect for it to reflect reality and
sometimes that's not obvious at the time
but eventually it was like wow
subhanallah it's amazing i understand
that now i see why that that you know i
see why and how that works and i think
you know the the the examples are
countless
in constant every time i read through
the seerah and look at different
examples um you see things and you're
like wow subhanallah it's like
i now have a better understanding
for
something that maybe for a long time
people just took for granted that's
probably the other day i was reading an
example of the salaam one time his camel
was upset you know was angry and
everybody was afraid i don't even know
if this camel or another camel everybody
was afraid to approach it
and he took a piece of green
grass food you know for the camel and he
stood right in front of it
and he paused and he showed it the food
and he approached it a little bit and he
motioned and it came and and somehow
it's like i was talking to a friend of
mine who's like a veterinarian is like
that's like animal psychology like
that's a field that like people are like
you're just envisioning like you know
how he's even at the at the level of an
animal you know at a time when
you know it's like
say that last part you spoke to who of a
veterinarian you know a veterinarian
friend of mine who's like yeah animal
actually i said like
check this out what do you think and
he's like you know because they have
these these shows now with the dog
whisperers and cat whisperers and
they're like these like animal
psychologists
he was like this guy's like you know
he's he's behaving like an animal
psychologist subhanallah that's another
subhanallah moment yeah it's a
subhanallah moment like but like i'm
sure for a thousand years people read
that narration and they were just like
oh interesting story like it doesn't
mean anything and now as our
understanding develops we start to sort
of have an appreciation a deeper
appreciation for what
i actually came with and what and and
and what it means really when we say
he's a mercy sent as a mercy to mankind
thank you so much thank you so much
doctor
may allah bless you thank you for
spending some time with us and going
over this this hadith it's a pleasure
so there you have it nas nasir hope you
enjoyed this and everybody else
listening i hope you guys appreciated
this and it was another subhanallah
moment for you as it was for me so
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