well thank you for your opinion what do
you have to say
i would love to go to the iga sofia and
pray to raka you know
i don't have hatred in my heart for the
ottoman empire but they did wrong thing
last thing i'm going to say today with
regards to this one rather a museum
then a place of worship doesn't make
sense to me
yeah you're right absolutely we didn't
need the aya sofia to open
but it is a political statement yes
absolutely it's a political statement
so bismillah
well it's nice to have both of you here
on the dean show and if most of you know
we had
our good friend steph dr keres historian
academic and we were talking about
masjid el sofia is all in the news and
we were kind of giving a history a
breakdown
so we invited him back on again to
continue
our talk on his very exciting topic and
we also have imam issa wood who's no
stranger to the d
show so we wanted to go ahead and
continue on talking about
michelle sofia and then kind of uh go
ahead you had an another perspective
that you wanted to bring to the table
you saw wood and then we can kind of
cross check it and examine it and we can
also just talk about it and
he can go also give his input as a
historian and we can kind of see what we
can uh find the
the middleweight on all this all right
um
ask you to let us see truth is truth and
follow it and to let us see falsehood is
falsehood and keep us away from it
so i was uh i was watching the previous
episode uh
that uh i think maybe two episodes back
that you did on the issue of hagia
sophia and like most muslims
i've been following the uh what's going
on
so so this is basically what i wanted to
say today
um of course i want to start off by
saying no one is more happy than i am
when muslims have
places to pray when muslims are making
salah when
when the name of allah is being elevated
in the world of course
my goodness who wouldn't love that has
any man in their heart at all
i i love to see that however when i see
the current regime in turkey
suddenly in 2020 during all this
uh lockdown and riots around the world
about race issues just all of a sudden
they want to
take an old museum that was before that
a masjid and before that a church
and turn it back into a masjid again i
start scratching my head and asking
questions
why why are they doing it what is the
reason behind it
and the first thing that i recognize is
that
turkey is a nato member
they're part of the nato military wing
which i consider to be
the military wing of the antichrist
the the nato has done more to
infiltrate and overthrow muslim
countries
like libya their involvement currently
in syria
their involvement in uh iraq and
afghanistan
the they've done more to to mess up the
political system in our country than any
other
military establishment that i can think
of in in
modern history that turkey is a member
of that
meaning that their military allegiances
are not with the muslim world
they're with nato they're with america
and britain and france
and though israel is not a member of
nato they are a beneficiary
of nato's work no one has done more than
britain and america and france
to establish this current zionist regime
in israel
so i know that when turkey does
something like that they only do that
because they have nato's permission
and and and that's something we
cannot forget we have to be very keenly
aware of that
not to mention the fact that turkey uh
turkey's
uh a total economy is dependent on the
fiat riba system
that's controlled by the petro dollar so
if
turkey wants to do anything politically
and and nato doesn't like it all nato
has to do is attack
turkey's economy through the zionist
control banking system
and ruin their their currency and then
turkey wouldn't be able to do anything
so this is all happening by the
permission of nato now my question is
this
why would the zionist-controlled nato
want this to happen and that's
and why is it problematic for turkey to
be a part of nato
so the ferc on that first point allah
says in the quran
and we cannot forget this statement
oh you who have faith inside of you do
not take
christians and jews as your friends and
allies those christians and jews who are
friends and allies of one another
this is the modern zionist
relationship between primarily western
christianity
and or and uh and the jewish world which
didn't exist
a hundred years uh 150 years ago it's a
modern phenomenon
and then allah says
if you do this if you take them as your
friends and allies you're from them
you're not from us anymore in the la la
home of body mean allah does not guide
people who are oppressors
so it's incredibly problematic for
turkey to be a member of nato
from the perspective of the quran and
that's something we cannot forget that's
our book of guidance it helps us to
see the world as it really is not how
it appears to our eyes
why are they doing it so my
understanding
is that this is yet another attempt on
the part
of the jiao which is a force that works
in the world until it actually manifests
as an actual human being
that this is another attempt by the jiao
to drive a wedge
between the orthodox christian world
and the muslim world by reigniting and
opening old
wounds that exist between the people
and the reason i say that that shouldn't
be the case
is because the quran tells us
that you will find both at the time of
this revelation
and in the future the people who have
the most hatred in their hearts for the
believers
are the sinful jews and polytheists
that you will find in time to come
meaning at the time of this revelation
and in the future because this is this
is a present future
verb tense in arabic that you will find
the people who are the closest to you in
love and affection
are the people whose primary identity
inna nasara we are
christian at our core and then allah
goes on to describe
what kind of christians right because
they're not all the same
the ones that have priests and the ones
that have monks and the ones who are not
arrogant so the
this is a natural ally for muslims
a natural ally and we all we need to do
is look to the
initial first hijra of our prophet
salallahu islam
when the muslims were persecuted in
mecca he sent his own daughter
and and the third caliph of islam
uthman to
abyssinia to a orthodox
ashy when he passed away but he made a
covenant with saint catherine's
cathedral
in sinai peninsula to protect their
churches and to protect
the monks who were there and to not
conscript them into the military and not
to over tax them
or burden them and he also made
covenants with the christians of nejaran
he did not go into these places and
convert
churches into masajid neither was that
the way of the sahaba
they did not go into syria when the
muslims conquered syria
to overthrow the churches that were
there in fact in syria
initially when the sahaba came in there
was a church
for yahya john the baptist and the
muslims asked permission to build a
musollah next to it
and that's how it remained until the
time of marwan the first
when he actually demolished the church
for john the baptist and built the
current umayyad masjid on top of it and
that's when that
when nepotism came into this ummah when
the
uh that the prophet prophesied
the the the time in our um when we would
have biting kings
and when she said you would see some
good things from them and you would see
things that you would reject
right that's when they started to this
forcibly converting churches into
misajid
so why is this all being done
i believe and and in conclusion to this
is so
that when israel the current zionist
regime
in in in palestine decides
that they are going to build their third
temple because the
the messiah cannot come until the third
temple is born built according to them
and they believe that that's on the
temple mount
in the temple mount where misha al-aqsa
and the dome of the rock currently sit
that they need some sort of
justification
to to make that happen and i believe
that one of the talking points they're
going to use
is like well you know if the muslims can
take hagia sophia and turn it into a
church
then why can't we take meshed al-aqsa
and turn it into a temple i mean hey
we worship the same god right it doesn't
mean that muslims can't come here and
visit
and you know maybe we can even pay the
jordanian government for the property
but the point is is that none of us are
going to stand for that we're going to
immediately
call foul and say no this is wrong we
can't do it. but the problem is
if we supported the hagia sophia
transformation
then we're in a very bad position to
make an argument against it
and they can easily manipulate public
opinion around the world because the
public is going to agree
they're going to say yeah well if it's
good and good for the goose it's good
for the gander
if might makes right then in this case
the the
zionist regime has the might they took
it over now it's their right
to do it and then we're making that same
argument
for muhammad ii we're saying well he
conquered the city and so he had the
right to do what he wanted and so it was
turned into
a masjid so so you know those are my
basic points that i sent to eddie
initially was just that
you know we should really question why
is turkey doing this who gave them
permission
you know when when nato says jump turkey
has to say how high
i mean that's their relationship so so
this is happening by the graces of nato
and why would nato want this to happen
and i believe is to continually drive a
wedge between
what would be allies people who accept
jesus as the messiah
and that's the the christian world and
the muslim world
which by the way the prophet predicted
would make sole in the end time would
make
a uh reconciliation between each other
because we have a common enemy and the
enemy is the antichrist
and the antichrist cannot come into a
world where the two great world
religions that believe that he can't be
the messiah that is only jesus
uh are are cooperating together against
him that's going to be incredibly
problematic for
the child so this is something we should
be thinking about
you know not just looking at it with our
eyes and saying oh look another masjid
or or oh there's an islamic revival
happening in turkey no no this
this doesn't happen by by chance you
know there are strings being pulled
and we should be questioning why are
they being pulled and what what are the
potential consequences for this move for
the muslims in the future
and alana's best dr steph uh what do you
think now
he's bringing up a question is it a
relevant question
uh you got to listen to what was said um
what do you have to say
first of all i would like to thank you
for your opinion
and thank you for having invited me and
thank you for the possibility to being
able actually to exchange ideas it's a
very important point
first of all let me tell you one thing
i'm not representing the turkish
government here
i've never uttered any support for the
turkish government neither in the last
show with eddie
nor anywhere else and again i'm not
representing and i'm not
sitting here to protect the turkish
government which is a secular government
which was established in 1923 by mustafa
malata turk
by many scholars considered a non-muslim
and the whole turkish state actually
built on secular roots
and secular government and the swiss law
which that time was the law that was the
most important one in europe meaning
swiss french law
so that is absolutely i mean nothing
nothing i can really i can i can say
that i can agree ninety percent to what
uh
just said this is correct the name
you can just call me anything you want
to call me as long as you call me
you have a name right
so um so 90 i would agree to everything
jachisa said just now
and i also questioned and i think i made
this also clear last time in the dean
show that
i spoke with with eddie that i made
clear
that my statement which i have also in
writing
looks at this whole issue which has been
made an issue actually now
looks at it from three perspectives from
my side first of all it is a perspective
as a muslim
as you correctly said i'm also looking
forward to actually next time i'm in
in turkey i'm in istanbul i would love
to go to the ag sofia and pray to raka
and uh would love to be in that building
inshaallah and make
my masala there there's no doubt about
it as a muslim
obviously as you mentioned the map the
more places of worship we have the
better
and of course how can you be unhappy as
a historian i also said last time that
it i would have preferred it actually to
stay as it was as a museum simply
because as a historian and from the
historical perspective
you would be able to look at it as a
neutral building a rather neutral
building
and it would give a lot of historical
evidence for its past
as a greek i fully understand the greek
side of the story and i know the greek
people very well
and i know also the greek orthodox
church very well
um so i can understand fully all three
points
and i did not say that i support what
happened i just uttered
exactly as i just said all my three
different points of views
you know with regards to the change of
the building matter of the fact is
that it has turned into a mosque again
and as you correctly said
it was a museum before it was a
cathedral was built as a
as the main author's cathedral not that
the church actually was built as the
main orthodox cathedral
of the orthodox world so such an
important cathedral obviously in the 7th
century
extremely important 6th and 7th century
extremely important there is no doubt
about it that it would
of course cause uproar and they knew
that they knew that
and the turkish government knew it as
well and there was not something that
happened overnight there was something
that they prepared for
and of course it is absolutely right to
start
questioning what a secular government
such as turkey in general establishes a
secular government
what kind of reasons would they have
actually to do that and especially in
this time of the year
absolutely true and correct and i would
never say that there is no doubt about
it that i questioned it as well
and of course there is a political
reason behind it
and of course there are reasons that are
not necessarily religious
as well as their reasons for the greeks
on the other side
they don't do it out of religious
religiosity or love
for isla islam that they have such an
uproar in athens
and the people burn the turkish flag and
the people have such a big
problem with with turkey doing what it's
doing to the aya sofia
this is a sheer political issue religion
plays no role at all i tell you that now
already okay
this is just an excuse for both sides
to get out on the street and burn each
other's flags or
to get out this is not something new i
mean greece and turkey
they have been in in opera with each
other in in
in a destructive uproar with each other
since 1923 and early actually since 1821
the whole time that greece was actually
part of the ottoman empire
and we have to look into this side of
the history this side of the story is
very very important to see that actually
the greek orthodox church that you
mentioned very well had a lot of rights
and a lot of well rather rights than any
other church during the time of the
ottoman empire
and they were actually the right hand of
the sultan the sultan was actually
working together
with the episcopal and the patriarch and
the patriarch had a lot of a lot of
rights that they wouldn't have once once
greece became greece as it has become
as a secular government or a more
secular government than it was of course
before under the time of the ottoman
empire
no doubt about it so it is a political
move yes i would agree if this is the
the issue that uh of what you said
before i would definitely agree it's a
political move no doubt about it
i don't believe that turkey is suddenly
so religious that suddenly we have the
um the turkish side going out there and
and wanting another mosque because the
mosques are
full i know myself brother three years
ago was the last time i was in istanbul
you know i was wondering where are all
these turkish believing worshipers on a
fajr
when you go out to sultan ahmed mosque
or where you go out to sultan ahmed
square
and as you said just 50 yards down the
road there's
the blue mosque when you go in there
fajr doesn't even
not even one row for fajr not even one
way
so we don't need to open another mosque
absolutely i agree
and of course for that reason there was
not a religious reason neither for the
ones
not for the other so the greeks don't
have a religion
it's not that they have religious
feelings and suddenly they start crying
because the aya sophia became a mosque
no it is another reason
to have animosity and hostility between
these two nations
again as you said before as i said i
agree with one point that i want to make
a very important point that i think
you're not very much aware of is the
situation of the orthodox people in
general
now you made it seem as if the orthodox
people are biggest friends
i don't think so and if we look back in
history and if we look back
in not far away just 20 years ago what
happened on the balkans
i don't think that the orthodox
chetnicks were our friends
and i don't really think that the
breakup of yugoslavia shows us
that the orthodox people until now or
whatever started loving the muslims or
they were all in love
the problem that the muslims had
actually
with the christian side of the story
because there are three big christian
churches
and one of them is the orthodox church
the other two is the catholic church and
protestantism
and that time when prophet muhammed
gave us the quran and he was alive and
also the four
caliphs after him that time there was no
prophet
protestantism protestantism developed
much much later centuries later
so actually we were talking about that
time we're talking about the main church
being the orthodox church the only
church actually
the catholic church on the other side
and rome on the other side was attacked
by barbarians
by the germanic tribes rome was actually
several times besieged so the catholics
had actually already
lost their might and their power and
surat arun
refers to the romans as his wrongly
translator but actually
they mean the byzantines the east romans
so
obviously you know the host the
hostility
between chris christianity and islam
that time
was the hostility between muslims and
orthodox christians because they were
the only ones who were actually
considered christian still as i said the
catholics had lost their might and their
power
they were not very strong they had lost
everything already basically
rome was besieged the barbarians were
actually ruling rome already
spain portugal and so on and so on so
um if we really consider now the
orthodox being our friends if i
understood you correctly
then um what happened 20 years ago with
a breakup of yugoslavia there wasn't in
war
what happened before that when bulgaria
became a country and the bulgarians
actually themselves
forced muslims to change their surnames
to change their names
force them to go to turkey back to
turkey as they said
back to turkey because they call them
until nowadays even turks
even when we become muslims from the
balkan balkan peninsula
people like albanians greeks turks
bulgarians when we become muslim
we are called turks i was called until
now 30 years later my p my parents still
call me a turk
so now this that doesn't show me somehow
that the orthodox people are my friends
okay and if you look at the dogma of the
orthodox church
and we have seen certain positive
attitude we have seen
the last speech by uh priest public one
as far as i remember his name
when he was very clear and open saying
that actually it was better under the
turk he was saying
that he was under the franks meaning the
catholics
he was saying that no doubt about it but
is this the position of the
author orthodox church is this a
position of the greek orthodox in
general
there's no specific voices these are
specific people and greeks talk a lot
greeks talk a lot greeks are wonderful
in talking and don't forget mythology
comes from the greek
ancient greece culture so they are
wonderful in that and they can tell you
a lot of things the truth is we have to
look behind the history we have to look
indeed how they dealt with people
and what this whole revolution in the
19th century actually meant
it was clearly a revolution against the
ottoman empire it was a clear revolution
because they wanted their own nation
which was actually an influence from the
european
nationalistic point of view the french
revolution all this influenced of course
the greeks
to have an opera to have a revolution
against the ottomans
and until nowadays this is for them the
arch enemy number one
and of course the biggest people bigger
powers above
greece and turkey who actually want them
to be
in such a state as they are and they
want them to be always to regard
themselves
each other as enemies no doubt about it
and definitely the country where you
come from brother where you are this is
definitely the country that wants that
definitely this is not the country that
wants them to be friends and to
love each other and to to dance with
each other definitely not
so you know again the point of the aya
sofia at this moment
is questionable why they have made the
ios at this moment
back to turned it back to the mosque
it's questionable but that was never the
discussion point i never discussed this
and we never said
that that was something was not
questionable i just said that
it is now that it has become that's a
matter of fact now that it has become a
mosque
i'm looking forward to praying in there
and now that the turkish government has
agreed to make it a mosque
by the way the turkish government at
this moment is run by erdogan and not by
ataturk ataturk
died several decades ago ataturk mustafa
maratha turk was the one who established
the modern republic of turkey 1923
um and left it over to his party and
left it over to the people who took it
further
now turkey has changed 15 20 years ago
when i was in edinburgh
okay one of the biggest cities the
exactly the border to greece
i didn't see one hijab not one hijab
now ten years later i saw half the
population wearing a job
and now if you go now to turkey in eden
and istanbul in bursa and the bigger
cities
without a doubt the majority population
of female population is wearing hijab
you will see more people praying you
will see more people
have having coming back to the dean
without a doubt
without a doubt things have changed in
turkey and i'm not saying that this
government
is a religious and islamic government
it's not an islamic government because
turkey is not an islamic country it is a
secular country it's actually one of the
two
secular countries in the world france
and turkey
okay the one happens to have muslims as
a population and the other one
mainly christian catholics so that's
basically about turkey and as i said
before
the last thing i'm going to say to the
with regards to this one um
i would love to see the masajid in
sultan
square full in the morning and not only
or even for jummah
and then i would say congratulations
let's make some more mosques
and so on and there you're right
absolutely we didn't need the ia sofia
to open
but it is a political statement yes
absolutely it's a political statement
so bismillah so to respond to a couple
of your points and i really appreciate
you know a lot of the things you said
because you raise a lot of really
important questions that other muslims
have about the situation
firstly we need to understand that in
the quran allah
refers to room in a very positive way
allah says that
that room has been defeated but they'll
be successful in just a few years
and on that day the believing muslims
will celebrate
now why would we be celebrating people
who make shirk
who worship jesus as god in a trinity
right this is a question we should all
be at why is the quran talking so
positively about these people
and of course i brought up the very
clear example of the ethiopian orthodox
church
sheltering our prophet's daughter and
sheltering uthman ibn afan and many
other great sahaba
the idea that muslim and orthodox
christians
necessarily need to be locked in some
sort of strife is what i'm questioning
i'm not
at all denying the atrocities committed
on
both sides i mean all we have to do is
just throw up a few names here and you
know exactly what i'm talking about
you're historian
janissaries right eunuchs
harems fraternicide
this is the ottoman empire that we're
talking about here you know where
mohamed ii instituted the idea of
fraternicide that you should
kill off your brothers and sisters and
it's legally permitted so that you
maintain power the idea of the
janissaries where you can
steal orthodox christian children
from their families forcibly convert
them and circumcise
them into becoming muslims and then turn
them into an elite fighting force to go
back
and fight orthodox christians their own
people you know
the i mean this we're not talking about
some masoom
empire that's never done anything wrong
i understand why orthodox christians
some of them have deep suspicions of
muslims
and deep suspicions of the things that
we've done in the past and and yes
orthodox christians uh in and the
balkans and eddies were well aware of
this
have done atrocities also by the way
that a lot of that followed the turkish
armenian genocide
you know where the close to half the
armenian population
uh and by the way this was not done by
the ottoman empire this is when
the ottoman empire had basically almost
completely fallen after world war one
and become more or less a secular state
but the point is is that on both sides
of the coin
we've both done wrong things to each
other the question is it doesn't need to
be that way
and the quran i'm not saying that
orthodox christians just love muslims
but the quran says they should
that you will find both at the time of
this revelation
and in the future the people who have
the most love and affection for you this
is the quran talking here this is not
imam isa
al-adina those people who say indeed we
are
christian their primary identity is
christian now that may not be the case
for greek people and you know better
than me i
totally submit to your understanding of
greece you live there you live among the
people
but greek the greeks don't represent the
entire orthodox world
you have the russian orthodox the
armenian the georgian
the ethiopian the palestinian orthodox
christians
and they're not particularly happy about
this situation
of hagia sophia being turned into a
masjid again
and i don't think that their reasons are
secular reasons that
because of uh cultural identity like it
may be for the greeks
i believe that their issue is a
religious reason and and i try to make
this point to the muslims so that they
can illustrate it
it helps if you put yourself in another
person's shoes for a minute
can you imagine if the christians the
orthodox christians will use them an
example
not the catholics or the protestants
they invaded palestine
and they took michelle aksa and turned
it into a church
and maybe they even paid us for it maybe
they said you know what uh
we we we can take this church by force
but we know what just to be nice we're
gonna give you some money for it
would any muslim anywhere stand for that
no we would lose our minds
we would go absolutely no we're not
going to let this happen
because meshed al-aqsa is not just any
masjid
it's not just any message it's one of
the the most
important misogyny in the world and the
same is true for hagia sophia hugasu
is not just any church it's not like
here in america where churches go up for
sale all the time and muslims buy them
and
turn them into islamic centers
these are these these these are like
little small parishes
compared to what hagia sofia represents
for orthodox christian world
and by the way it would not hurt us at
all
would not hurt this ummah whatsoever for
us to give that back to them
and let them say look this is your
building you can have it back
what it would do is it would bring love
and affection again between us it would
help people to see through
the atrocities of the past which once
again were committed on both sides
it's not like you know i don't have
hatred in my heart for the ottoman
empire
but they did wrong things they did very
wrong things and to the extent
to those things have been exaggerated in
the history books i don't know
you know i i can't i wasn't there when
it happened but
the idea is that we should be in
alliance with each other because we have
a common enemy
and that common enemy is zionism and
zionism is the political
uh entity that will bring about the
antichrist the at the jail
and so it's better for us as muslims
to to have alliances and to cooperate
for common good ta'awanu
right so that when the jaw comes and
this is a prophecy from the prophet
muhammad
that the that the muslims and
room as you correctly mentioned which is
referring to byzantium the orthodox
christian world
will make this is reconciliation
they'll reconcile their history and
they'll work together for a common goal
and that and if that's the if that's the
future that the prophet told us what
happened then we should work towards
that goal
it doesn't mean that we we we forget the
things that happened in the past
but but we can look over them you know
our prophet when he came into mecca this
is his sunnah
and and and it was the way of the arabs
during that time in jahiliyyah
when one arab tribe would take over
another arab tribe they would execute
all the men
and they would enslave the women and
children but when our prophet salallahu
when he came into mecca
even though his friends his family
had been killed tortured sanctioned
driven out of their homes
that meccans had made endless war and
been extremely treacherous with the
muslims over and over and over
what how did he respond what was his was
it
oh no no we have to keep we have to keep
remembering these atrocities every
single no we have to we can't forget
them we have to keep mentioning them
no it was
this is our prophet there's not nothing
for you to worry about today you're free
to go
that's his sunnah you know that the
continual strife and hatred
for past events is not conducive
for peace it's not conducive for
cooperation it's not conducive for a
better world
you know and and and you know so i just
concluded saying you know we're
the muslim world is not innocent we yes
we did
treat christians better than many other
empires in the world at the time
we did treat jews much better than they
were being treated the rest of the world
no one can deny that you're absolutely
right
right but there are things that we did
that are very wrong that would if we put
ourselves
in their shoes we would probably feel
the same way
and that's the thing that i ask everyone
watching us to do today just really try
to imagine yourself
you're you're an orthodox christian for
a moment and these things were done to
you and your people and your churches
right would you how would you feel about
that and the answer is very clear you
you
probably wouldn't feel very different so
so
no it's not that the christian world
just loves muslims
the orthodox christian world just loves
muslims no we have work to do with each
other
you know and that's what i'm doing right
now i'm actually contacting orthodox
christian
um leaders in my my state here in north
carolina and i'm telling them how i feel
about this issue
and a lot of them are very happy to hear
from me and and they say you know we
know that not every muslim in the world
supports this and
one christian orthodox leader
and the city i grew up in he was like
you know i used to have muslims work for
me when i owned a restaurant they were
the best people
you know so there there is love there
but we need to reconcile
some of the problems and this this
conversion of hagia sofia
is going to be a sticking point for us
and
and yes it's already been done but that
doesn't mean it can't be undone
and that doesn't mean we have to support
it and
and i i appreciate you saying that you
would you would love to see
that the rest of the misagid and the
world would fill up
you know and in my opinion before we
start taking other people's buildings
and turning them into misagid
that's as i said again i mean it's good
to have an opinion it's good to have an
idea it is more important to a fact
um with regards to the orthodox world
and with regards to the orthodox people
i'm very very sure brother that i know
them better than you do
that's one thing simply because i was
one of them and i still belong to the
greek nation
and you mentioned very correctly that
it's not only the greeks
but it is the base of the orthodox
christian author's christianity
is in greece there is no doubt about it
that the greek people
claim to be actually the base of
christianity
because of their of the language okay we
know that the new testament has been
written in greek
we know also that the connection there
was actually between the greek culture
greek tradition greek language and
everything that had to do with
hellenic culture and holistic culture
anything that had with christianity they
developed later
um and no doubt about it again ethiopia
subhanallah how can we deny that
of course but we are talking about the
sixth and seventh century
are these christians the orthodox people
of that time
are these the same people can you really
honestly compare the people of that time
with the people of nowadays
who are actually burning the turkish
flag who are just interested
in nationalistic propaganda because
that's what you hear and you know what
brother i read greek
and i can see also greek newspapers and
i read newspapers greek newspapers and
greek magazines
where they actually they express
explicitly utter their opinion with
regards to
the aya sophia with regards to their
turks and that turk as they call them
easily
and the turkish the turkish past and
everything everything is demonized and
what
really i have a problem with is when you
have muslims on the other side
using the same arguments that i grew up
with you
really said before you you really said
before
you mentioned the typical examples that
any non-muslim
actually would mention with regards to
the ottoman empire
and it is very sad to hear from a muslim
okay
we are most as muslims as you said
properly and correctly
as muslims we have to support each other
rather than supporting the orthodox i
support the muslims
now and you're absolutely right of
course we people as people made mistakes
and of course did people in the past
make mistakes and of course
atrocities were committed from both
sides but reality is and it's not me
saying that
if i look at the the balkan peninsula
for the last 200 years
and i look in the atrocities committed
by by who who committed actually the
biggest atrocities and who started
the whole issue there was never the side
of the muslims
there was never the start of the muslims
are you going to tell me now
probably that the ottomans came over
into the balkan peninsula they went to
europe and they conquered europe
and they conquered the balkan peninsula
and they killed our women
raped them and took our the children
away because you mentioned the
deficiency before the death shima was a
system
we have to look deeply into it we cannot
do that in a show of an hour
to look into the ottoman empire just
throw around with some words that we
know the deaf shir
and um the um whatever else was
mentioned before
that is a typical thing that we grew up
with as greeks at school and as orthodox
people on the orthodox balkans
that's what they're saying they're
telling us basically they had a rape
they raped our women
they took our children forcefully
converted them to islam
took them to istanbul to the sultan and
made them put them in the janissary club
that is not even 10 of the truth
and this one as a historian i hundred
percent can guarantee you that this
is propaganda and has been propaganda
against the ottoman empire
for the last centuries and now that i
hear that again from a muslim it makes
me actually quite upset to be very
honest
because these are concepts that we were
told
and taught at school and these are not
concepts that you have looked into i'm
very sure
whereas me is a story in the last 30
years of my life as a muslim historian
i've looked deeply into it
and i've seen that actually as i said
before 10
might be true of everything we have been
taught at school
and not only the greeks but in general
on the balkan peninsula even the arabs
you go to north africa you go to
egyptians
you go you speak to syrians they tell
you even worse things against the
ottomans worse than what you said before
so all these princes these ideas that we
have about the ottoman empire especially
as muslims
they come from the western world they
were the ones actually who gave us the
education system if you look at turkey
as an example because you're speaking
about turkey look at the education
system
that was actually set up in turkey 1923
after the collapse of the ottoman empire
it was nothing else but the western
system
and the western system taught them as
well as in the rest of the muslim world
one thing to hate the ottomans as if
they did something wrong
as if they the french and the british
did something better
than the ottomans the ottomans were at
least muslims
now we can discuss the issue of sufism
and so on and so on all the stuff we can
discuss of course
but who gave the arabs the right
to revolt against the ottomans who were
muslims
together with the british and with the
french and have the result that we have
nowadays
so i don't think that there's a lot more
to say to that
um but we have to be really careful when
we throw around with words we need to
know if historically
these terms that were just used before
um
can be explained and again the issue of
the janissary court the issue of the
death shirme the issue of taking
children away from the balkan peninsula
that is not something new by the way it
was not the ottomans who invented it
the slave army existed already the
salika
army existed already under the umayyads
the umayyads was the first dynasty after
the
rashidin so they had already had a slave
army made of
non-muslim boys so it was not something
that the
ottomans invented the abbasids had as
well a slave army
so there was nothing new and if we talk
and we start
actually bashing the ottomans then we
should actually look back
at our arab brothers before and our
muslim
dynasties before which were many of them
they committed
all atrocities they all made mistakes
they all had problems they all had
issues they all killed each other for
the throne brothers killed brothers so i
don't know why is this a specific issue
that we have to mention for the ottomans
you know because it because it was wrong
for them to do it and it was wrong for
people before to do it it's
totally against our religion to forcibly
convert people and nobody says that
it was right and so and so instead of uh
instead of us cheering
the ottoman empire and only looking at
the things that we like about them
we have to be balanced and say to
ourselves okay i never did that but i
don't know if you know any lectures on
my side i am
always known for people also i think i
think i i think i've un
incorrectly uh i have given you the
impression that that a lot of the things
i'm saying today are directed at you
specifically and they're not and i do
apologize for that
it's more directed at the general ethos
that's going on in the world around the
support of this
i don't i i don't i don't want you to
think that i uh
that any of the things i said today are
directed at you personally actually i
really enjoyed your
your uh your talk that you did with
eddie and i appreciate you
bringing up very important points that
there was no real
historical evidence you could find that
hagia sophia was purchased
right and i don't i want to be clear
guys i do not have hatred for the
ottoman empire
that you know i'm not like the
modern-day uh
extremist salafis who say that the
ottoman empire or kuffar because they
fought muhammad
abdul wahab and arabia or any of the
other stuff
like my only point is that uh and i and
i hope this was clear
is that we should have a better
relationship with orthodox christians
and muslims
so there would be nobody who would love
it more than me i mean subhanallah
and one of the ways we can do that is by
writing some of the wrongs that were
done in the past now
people may disagree with me and it's
probably the majority of people and
that's okay i'm
i'm a white american muslim i'm used to
being in the minority okay
when i go in the most misagid i don't
look like anybody except last week eddie
i was at machida noor in lawrenceville
georgia bosnia and masjid
i saw many faces that look like you
mashallah but
uh but my point is i'm used to being in
the minority and i realized that
you know a lot of the things i'm saying
today a lot of people are going to
disagree with that's okay
uh i i i i don't i don't want anyone to
think that i have like
hatred in my heart for or i'm siding
with the orthodox christians on this no
obviously the things they've done are
wrong and they're totally wrong and they
should also seek
with us over those things what they did
in the balkans was wrong
i don't think the average serbian
supported
that genocide i think it was primarily
the
the government regime at the time i
don't think the average serbian
really has deep down in their heart this
joy that the the muslims in the balkan
were
were involved in a genocide but the
but the point i'm trying to make is that
the hard feelings we need to look
past them we need to look forward and we
need to follow the the model of our
prophet
right that's the point of me mentioning
the conquest of mecca is that he
sorry sorry i did not want to interrupt
you but i need to say that exactly at
this point because i couldn't agree more
than that
i mean that that's the point where i say
subhanallah of course we have to come
together
and of course we have to put on dialogue
and of course we have to especially
uh in the middle east and greece is
closer to the middle east
than of the balkan peninsula is closer
to the middle east than any other part
of
europe so of course we would have to sit
together and we have to discuss and
and of course that was again it was a
political move
brother you know it was a political move
let's be honest
nobody i mean nobody in the rhine might
in the right mindset would say we sit
down and say erdogan
did this because that was the most
religious thing he could do
um you know by the way he would never
have done that
unless nato gave him the go-ahead we
need to be clear about that
nato the whole issue the whole issue
with turkey being a nato
country and so on yes but again as i
said before turkey didn't enter nato
yesterday
it was something that happened you know
a long time ago
and was something can they that's
another question
how easy it is to leave that's another
question it goes really deep in the
political structure
this is not it's not something that you
know what today i'm going to decide to
leave as a country
it's not as a mighty as mighty it's a
strong country turkey has become a very
strong country and militarily definitely
know a lot about it
but is it that easy you think for turkey
just to say bye bye nato
because we don't want to it would not be
an easy thing nothing worth doing is
ever easy
and it's definitely worth and in their
best interest in the best interest of
the muslim ummah in the best interest of
the followers of the prophet muhammad
that they not being allies
allies with the zionist military wing
which is don't forget one thing erdogan
does not have to fight
only the outside forces but what about
more than 25
percent of its population officially are
chemists
meaning supporting mustafa kemal's
ataturk idea who as i mentioned before
about this person i don't want to go
deeper into him
but mustafa malata took's idea of a
turkey of a modern
republic of turkey was anything but
islamic so
if you have 25 percent of a population a
quarter of a population officially
being on on the side of on against the
side of islam
then you have to some kind you know you
have to see how you're going to move
your political moves it's not that easy
it's not for for an outsider it is
something that we can we can criticize
absolutely
and i definitely criticized also the
position that erdogan has taken
in certain elements and with certain
policy that he has no doubt about it
however by the way i also understand i
was going to say it's also
worth with us having a little bit of
insight onto
the world economy turkey would not even
be able to make these kind of moves
at all because all the international
banking cabal has to do is attack their
currency
just a few years ago or maybe it wasn't
even years ago that turkish
economy was attacked yeah they're their
lyra
sank immensely so and they have issues
at this moment there's an economic
crisis in turkey no doubt about it yes i
even recall the people at the dnn center
talking about how
you know the the turkish government
built that building but then because the
lira has fallen they they can't even
keep it up so the
the the you know as long as the muslim
world is attached to this reba banking
system
run by zionists they can't do anything
they that's why i'm not you know and i
know you've made this point
i'm not impressed by this i don't see
this as some sort of islamic revival
until i see
major moves on the part of the turkish
another one
to get rid of the banking system and all
the other things absolutely i mean this
this euphoria
suddenly we have the new caliphate and
some that's absolute nonsense of course
let's be clear there's no new caliphate
there there's a come on there's no
no doubt about this one and uh of course
and i know also that with my position
you know and so as i said
i mentioned before 90 of what you said
you know i could just
sign what you just said if you put it on
paper um
um i do have an issue with regards to
the orthodox
church and the orthodox people because
that's where i came from
and i know them actually quite well and
i know the animal said in hostility
towards muslims
and what i know i know the insider's
position because
as somebody being from them they
sometimes open themselves towards me
forgetting totally that i'm actually
muslim
so you hear quite clearly actually in
front of me many
many things many statements came out of
greek mouths
you know where you would say wait a sec
you forgot that i'm a muslim indeed they
did
they by the way i don't deny this at all
you're you're
and you're in a much better position to
talk on that subject than me but my
my model society for how muslims and
orthodox christians should be getting
along is modern day ethiopia
because in modern day ethiopia you have
the orthodox
to haiti church and you have uh
for primarily sunni islam and they're
living together
i mean i've even talked to ethiopians
who've told me firsthand witness that
during ramadan the christians come and
give muslims iftar
during lent the muslims give food to the
christians
that when a church is in disrepair in in
in uh
addis ababa they'll uh the muslims will
help repair it the same thing for the
christians for the
masajid that's what used to happen
yugoslavia
before the bomb and that's the way it
should be you know but
still what happened brother still there
what happened yeah i don't i don't deny
that you're absolutely right you know
and
so that's an atrocity that has to be
addressed absolutely absolutely
especially on the part of the orthodox
christian world and i appeal to them
to do the same to speak out against
their atrocities that they committed
like i'm trying to speak out today
and and by the way i agree with you also
that there are exaggerations in the
history books about some of the
atrocities of the ottoman empire
it doesn't mean and you agreed with me
that there isn't probably 10
of it that's true and that doesn't that
doesn't excuse that 10 percent and we
can't
fall into the logical fallacy of saying
well because they've done this to us
it's okay for us to do that to them no
no
absolutely our guidance comes from the
quran and the prophet muhammad how did
he
that's our example no matter what's been
done to us we look back to him to see
how rahmatan
mercy to everything dealt with people
and
so you know i think brother to be honest
with you me and you
have have way more in common on this
issue and i'm just trying to offer
a perspective that i think a lot of
muslims haven't considered what is the
implications of this event
how could it potentially backfire for us
in the future if we
support this okay and that is a very
important brother sorry this is a
maybe this should be that but indeed
that is the most important point that
maybe that
could be a nice ending here now because
indeed what is happening now
the geopolitical the strategical
position of these countries
being where they are the problems that
have occurred 20 30 years ago although
we never
thought there would be another one
europe was there now we're looking at
the position of these countries we're
looking at the hostility and enmity that
has been there for
all these centuries decades and
centuries indeed
what kind of result is this just to open
or just to do something which was an
unnecessary move in that way because we
do have enough mosques yes
that was again a political move and now
uh
where this will lead us
i really don't know but one thing that i
don't believe i don't believe that
there's going to be anything
any repercussions coming from the side
of greece because
greece is in a deep very deep economic
crisis has been the last decade already
they need these things they need for
their population the politicians in
greece
need to have another enemy outside need
to look always back to turkey and tell
the greek population who are suffering
they're indeed suffering this moment
financially to have something else to
look at
and to to show them basically get
another scapegoat at this moment
it fits nicely in the agenda okay it
fits nicely in the propaganda the
government is doing for itself to
basically blame others instead of
themselves
so yes that will not result in something
good i don't think it will result in
something good well the main issue and
this was at the beginning of my
the first speech i gave was the issue of
al-aqsa
and the justification that israel can
use in the future
uh for taking it over completely
whether they pay jordan for their rights
to have it
completely or they or they just simply
militarily just grab it
in order to establish their third temple
and and that's
that that those talking points that
israel can use in the future
to justify what they're doing could be
the very talking points we're using
today to justify what we've done
and that's that's that's a concern i
have and then we should be aware of that
it is absolutely i am i agree with that
yes absolutely that could be an issue
that uh because again
if you say that turkey is a sovereign
country which is true it is a sovereign
country and get to what it wants to then
you can also say israel is a sovereign
country as well accepted by
most of most countries in the world and
they can also do what they want to there
is a very valid point a wrong point but
a valid point
and uh absolutely absolutely i mean what
can you say more
we're just hoping i mean
i don't know i don't know the point is i
don't think that we
are well you mentioned yamakayama before
you mentioned actually we are not far of
it we are not far away but
far away for for a planet has been
millions of years i mean it can also
mean in a thousand years it can also
mean in 10
000 years that is not far away but the
point
is here at this moment we have a
situation and this situation that we
have
i don't know if we can re go back to it
as you mentioned before actually if we
can uh petition and if we can do
something to the turkish government tell
them basically to
to go back to make it a museum again
because when it was a museum that's also
a matter of the fact actually when it
was a museum how come that that time
now that the orthodox church nor the
greek government no anybody else
actually had a problem with that it it
became it was a house of worship before
okay it was the cathedral of course the
author's cathedral
became a mosque and then it became a
museum under a secular government
and that was the time that would have
been the time and i know i'm not aware
of any authentic sources telling me
that that time the greek government had
a problem with that or that time the
greeks or the greek orthodox church
had actually come out and said that is
something despicable and very bad as it
did this time
so rather a museum than a place of
worship
doesn't make sense to me on the other
hand again as
the priest papa nicolas said recently
again when it was a museum
tourists had to pay to enter to go and
see it now tourists can still come and
see it
and they don't have to pay a penny next
to this one
they have to get dressed appropriately
to come into a place of worship
they didn't have to do it at that time
when it was a museum so
these are all elements you have to
consider as well so well i
actually did watch that video and i saw
him clearly say that
he didn't prefer it to be controlled by
muslims or
latins that's right he said he would
have been there
of course he has to decide but he said
at the very least the muslims were more
respectful to the place than the last
that's right
and by the way and people watching the
show and you you did bring this up
during your talk with eddie
we can't lump all christians together
there is
differences between christians lesu
sawat the quran says they're not the
same and
and and i do not consider these santa
claus christians in the united states
you know the the protestants and the
roman catholics to be
nearly as close to me as a muslim as the
orthodox
as far as their practice their lifestyle
i mean i have a
right down the road from my house i have
a russian orthodox christian church
and if you drive by there on sunday you
see men with beards
women covering their heads you see you
know the
you can go into many orthodox churches
there's no pews because the people pray
on the ground
you know as you mentioned uh in a
previous video about how some of the
christian monks pray they make sujud you
know uh they
they have real actual fasting not i'm
going to give up ice cream for 40 days
but they
they believe in an actual you know
abstaining from
from food and and drink in some cases so
they they
as the quran says uh
these have been issues as you just
mentioned properly i mean absolutely
that's right this has been issues that
even the greek orthodox church the
russian orthodox church
the ethiopian orthodox church they
differ widely about these issues
and no greek would ever you know put
prostrate the way that an ethiopian
orthodox would prostrate
so which is closer to the sun which is
closer to islam actually so absolutely
true and don't forget
the orthodox church is actually divided
in three three big parts
three big parts so the eastern orthodox
church for example what ethiopia belongs
to
obviously is closer to islam there's no
doubt about it there's no doubt about it
and yes i mean um yeah but it requires
a lot of research and it requires really
a lot of understanding of each other
to um have a proper um
to show tolerance actually it is uh and
i believe still in the past i mean the
history
in the history of the muslims and you
mentioned it as well before
we should not forget that it was always
the muslim empires that allowed
jews to live uh freely and to thrive in
their
own religion as well as christians even
especially authors christians
so there is something that there is no
doubt about it and there is no doubt
about it the muslim empires
were more tolerant more open and more
open-minded towards christians and jews
than any other empire before and jews
know it the best they know it
jews who know their history know very
well that it was
the muslim empires that allowed the jews
to thrive and to have golden ages
and not the the christians and not the
europeans
eddie we haven't we haven't let you talk
at all man
he gave us a chance
the last thing i want to say is
there is no god except the lost panama
to allah and he has no partner
and that to him is the dominion and to
him is the praise
and he has power over all things and
that's the best thing we can all say
today on
our fat this is a blessed day all of us
should be turning to allah and repenting
for our sins
i imagine and probably where you are uh
that you've probably already broken your
fast for the day so
we say robina
ask you to accept from us this day to
accept the
uh the hajjaj who are making hajj right
now
uh we ask you to allow the muslims to
continue to be people of bitter and
taqwa and to join with other people and
doing the same
we ask allah for us to see the best in
everyone around us
and we ask allah as i said in the
beginning of this talk
let us see truth is truth and follow us
let us see things as they really are not
just how they appear to our eyes
we still have 40 minutes not yet not yet
inshallah so we still have exactly 41
minutes
so inshallah i definitely enjoyed it
mashallah there's nothing to add to it
mashallah i mean the doors are the most
important things and indeed
may allah keep us on the straight path
all of us
may allah make us stronger um stronger
and may allah give us the the give our
people because seeing that you are also
revered
may allah also help our parents and
our families to be on the straight path
and i think this is the most important
dua i think for all of it
and we might have different i'll say i
never tell people i'm a reaver or
convert i just say the muslims let me
join
you you join the link mashallah that's
great mashallah no absolutely we have to
we should not forget that we do have
people that we have to take care of as
well
and not to forget to make dua for our
parents i don't know about your parents
but i'm still making dough for my
parents um
so hopefully insha allah insha allah
will allah give us
the put us on the straight path and
jazakallah
also for the possibility uh eddie and
inshallah i'm looking forward to another
chance thank you eddie
once again for for allowing this
conversation to take place um i realize
of course i'm
probably in the minority position here
on on my views but at the same time
you know it's nice that that as as
muslims we can have
differences of opinion on issues and at
the end of the day we can still come
together
agree to disagree but agree on most
things and that's the thing
about our faith you know is this
tolerance for differences of opinion and
allowing
opinions to be expressed in that subject
absolutely
exactly absolutely what more to say
eddie to you
thank you both it was a pleasure honor
having both of you
[Music]
uh
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