Alhamdulillah, which means peace be unto
you. Welcome to another episode of the
Dean Show. You want to know about Islam,
you've come to the right place. You want
to know about Muslims, you've come to
the source. Now today we're going to be
discussing a very very important topic.
It's something that if we understand
properly, we will live a better life. We
will live a complete life. It is the
concept of salvation. We're going to be
talking about something that some of you
are familiar with. Some of you might
even believe. Now, this might be
sensitive to some people. So, we
apologize. Our intention is not to upset
anybody or hurt anybody's feelings. Our
next guest is going to be talking about
the salvation that some people believe
that someone else paid the price for
your sins. So, let's hear what he has to
say. Our next guest, sit tight, is Dr.
Lawrence Brown. Be right back on the
Dean Show.
Dean
Allah, there's only one word and
Muhammad is his messenger.
Allah
Allah.
Allah. There's only one God and Jesus
was his messenger.
I don't know why I did that. Maybe maybe
it's just to break the iceum.
How are you, Dr. Brown? Alhamdulillah.
Good. Thank you for being with us. Some
of our audience already already are
familiar with you. We've done a few
shows in the past and I'm very happy,
excited that you're back again. Good to
be here. All right. We want to talk
about we're going to get straight to the
topic. Some people they have
conveniently or some people have just
blindly or some people have sincerely
accepted the idea the belief that
someone else has paid the price for
their sins. We want to discuss this. We
want your ideas and we want your opinion
on this. Okay. You know, let me begin by
saying that religious discussion is
always a little bit sensitive and uh
it's not our intention to hurt anybody's
feelings. uh rather our intention is
just to get to the root of the matter.
Uh we were talking earlier about on one
of our earlier episodes about uh how I
became Muslim uh basically was my path
through Christianity or exactly what my
path was and I voiced uh some of my
concerns about Christianity in that
episode. The reason why I I myself was
not able to uh accept the tenants of
Christian
faith. One of the reasons was that uh
Christian faith hinges off of the
concept of u the atonement. The concept
that Jesus Christ died for our sins. Uh
I always had trouble with that concept.
Uh I never understood how Jesus Christ
or anybody could die for anybody else's
sins.
And uh so that's basically what we
decided together to talk about on this
show.
Uh I think the the beginning point that
I would make is that the concept of the
atonement is one of the most simplistic
but beautiful formulas uh that exists
for religious salvation. um the concept
that if you believe in Jesus Christ and
you believe that he died for your sins,
then that is sufficient for redemption,
that is sufficient for salvation, you
will have your place in paradise. And uh
I mean, I have to say, sounds good to
me. What do you think? Be a fool not to
accept it. And that's kind of my point.
I mean, my point is if it were true, and
that's the big if. If it were true, um,
we would all be fools not for accepting
it. It would be the easiest thing just
to say, "Where do I sign on the bottom
line and give him my key to paradise?"
Um, so first of all, we have to validate
the concept. We have to ask ourselves,
is it true? Did Jesus Christ die for our
sins? Um, and I would say if we're going
to if we're going to analyze that
concept, the first thing we have to do
is ask the witnesses. I mean, let's ask
the people who were there and who saw
it, okay? Let's ask the Bible. Let's ask
the
Gospels. But there's a problem there. If
we're going to look at Matthew, Mark,
Luke, and John, those are what what is
regard what are regarded as the biblical
witnesses.
However, the big problem there is
Matthew, Mark and Luke, Luke and John
were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke,
Luke and John. Um, this is a very little
known fact, but the fact of the matter
is that all four gospels were anonymous.
Um, none of them are signed. None of
them bear the name of the author. They
were given those names out of
convenience. Now, I'm going to go some
to some notes here because I want to get
this letter perfect. And I'm going to
read you something. uh a statement by
Graham Stanton, one of one of the
greatest scholars of our time uh on the
New Testament and he wrote the Gospels
unlike most Greco Roman writings are
anonymous. The familiar headings which
give the name of an author the gospel
according to were not part of the
original manuscripts for they were added
only early in the second century.
added in the second
century. Who added them? Who added those
names to the gospels who we don't know
who wrote them? Well, believe it or not,
who added them? We don't know that
either.
Now, I don't mean to get real picky
here, but if I were to give anybody out
there a book of guidance on anything, a
book of guidance on car repair, a book
of guidance on
astrophysics, something that's going to
impact your life, um something that you
want to know the authority of, the first
question in your mind is going to be
what? I mean, it's going to be who wrote
this, right? And yet here we're being
told that the gospels, the four gospels,
all four gospels of the Bible are
anonymous. I had a problem with that,
and I think a lot of other people do.
But I tell you what, let's just forget
all that. And why not? Because most
people forget all that anyway. For the
last 2,000 years, we've had sort of this
syndrome of of trying to push that
aside. So let's just for the sake of
discussion put that
aside and instead
uh let's just look at the scriptural
authority. Again I'm going to read to
you the interpreter's dictionary of the
Bible. The interpreter's dictionary of
the Bible. Now this is obviously a
Christian work states it is safe to say
that there is not one sentence in the
New Testament in which the manuscript
tradition is wholly
uniform. Not one sentence. Bart demon uh
stated it in terms that I think are
perhaps a little bit easier for us to
get our our grasp upon. He said, quote,
possibly it is easiest to put the matter
in comparative terms. There are more
differences in our manuscripts than
there are words in the in the New
Testament. There are more differences in
our manuscripts than there are words in
the New Testament, which really gives me
a a very good, you know, sound feeling
about the Bible. No. And I would just
say it shouldn't it shouldn't give
anybody a a feeling of comfort about the
work. We've talked about the fact that,
you know, the gospels were anonymous.
Many of the other books were anonymous.
And now we're hearing that there are
more differences in the manuscripts than
there are words in the New
Testament. So I don't mean to cut you
off. Tell me, so just to uh get this
straight, you're telling us that we
don't know who actually wrote these
books. That Jesus obviously didn't write
it. We don't have the gospel according
to Jesus. And uh many people are under
the assumption that these were his
companions. These were people that live
with him. Is this correct? Exactly.
Exactly. It's not true. And these are
the references that people can go check.
So that you're not making this up
according to your Exactly. And by by the
way, everything that I read you,
everything that I tell you, you can find
in my articles and and in my books,
which we'll come back to. But the point
is that if we look to the gospels,
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, we first
have to understand we're not reading
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We're
reading anonymous, anonymous, anonymous,
anonymous. Okay? We don't know who wrote
them. And there are tremendous
differences between them. Let me give
you an example. Okay? Um, I mean, let's
say that you pick up a book of
mathematics and on page one it says 1
plus 1 is two and on page 10 it says 1
plus 1 is three. You know there's a
problem, right? Big problem. You're
you're probably going to ditch that book
pretty fast. Well, if we're holding the
Bible up as being a book of revelation
from God, we have to expect that there
is not a single error within the Bible.
But let me just read some things to you.
Uh, for example, the Bible tells
us what Jesus wore, what he drank, and
what he said,
right? Yes and
no. Some people saying one thing, others
say another. Um, for example, in Matthew
27:28, uh, the Roman soldiers dressed
Jesus in a scarlet robe. However, in
John 19 19:2, it says that the rope was
purple. Matthew 27:34 says the Roman
gave Romans gave Jesus sour wine mixed
with g. In Matthew 15:23, it was mixed
with myrr. Matthew 15:25, Jesus was
crucified before the third hour. John
19:14-15 says about the sixth hour. Luke
23:46 says Jesus's last words were,
"Father, into your hands I commit my
spirit." Beautiful words. Only problem
is in John 19:30, it records Jesus's
last words as, "It is finished." Now, I
I'll tell you just kind of a whimsical
story here. I pic I picked up a book a
little while ago called Famous Last
Words. Yes. Right. And it recorded
people's famous last words throughout
history. One of the one of the funniest
ones, one that like the one I like the
most was uh this general at uh battle of
Spatulia during the civil war. Okay. One
of his aids was telling him not to be
lifting his head up over a parapet
because it was not cautious. It was
dangerous. His famous last words were,
"Ah, they couldn't hit an elephant at
this
disc." And that was the end. They
couldn't hit an elephant at this
distance. He couldn't even finish his
sentence. He got killed. Yeah. Famous
last words. What's my point? My point is
that followers of famous people hang on
to their words. All right. And when a
person is dying, they hang on to their
words even more closely because
everybody is looking to quote your
famous last words. You know what? And
they're looking they're looking for the
answer. Like that famous question,
what's the answer? And the dying person
said, "What's the question?" But the
point is they got the quote right. And
here in the Bible, we have two gospels
written by people we don't know. But
let's say we trust them. They both say
different things. One says the last
words were Jesus's last words were, "It
is finished." The other into your hands
I commend my spirit.
So, we have to ask ourselves, is this is
this something that we would trust? Now,
you know, when we're talking about the
atonement, what what does this all come
down to? It all comes down to the
crucifixion, right? Yeah. Question of,
did Jesus die for our sins? Well, let's
take that a step further. Did Jesus die
at all?
Um, if we look at the biblical
accounts of what happened before and
after the alleged crucifixion, we have
to remember in the garden of Gethsemane,
according to the Bible, all of the
disciples deserted deserted Jesus and
fled. Now, if all of the disciples
deserted him and fled, who is there at
his trial? Who is there at his
persecution? Who is there at his
crucifixion? We don't know.
We don't know who is there. We don't
know who he wrote about it. We don't
know the authority of what we have in
our hands. What we do know is this.
Following the alleged crucifixion, who
went to the tomb? According to Matthew,
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary,
according to Mark, Mary
Magdalene. According to Luke, the women
who had come with him from Galilee.
According to John, Mary Magdalene. Why
did they go to the tomb? Matthew to see
the tomb. Mark, they brought spices. Uh,
Luke, they brought spices. John, no
reason. Was there an earthquake?
Matthew, yes. Mark, Luke, John, no
mention. Did an angel descend? Matthew,
yes. Mark, Luke, John, no mention. Wait
a minute. I have a problem. We're
talking about an earthquake and an angel
descending. We're not talking about
something as simple as Jesus riding the
donkey.
All of the gospels agree Jesus rode the
donkey, which is pretty high on the who
cares list. Who cares if he rode the
donkey? But they all agree he wrote the
donkey. But we have three gospels who
fail to mention an angel descending and
an
earthquake. I mean, can you imagine
three newspapers recording a historical
event and one of them mentions an angel,
one of them mentions an earthquake, and
three don't?
I'm I'm only pointing out that we have a
reason to have suspicion about the
account. Who rolled back the stone?
Matthew the angel. Mark, Luke, and John.
Unknown. Who is at the tomb? Matthew, an
angel. Mark, a young man. Luke, two men.
John, two angels. Where were they?
Matthew, the angel, was sitting at the
stone outside the tomb. Mark the young
man, the young man was in the tomb
sitting on the right side. Luke, the two
men were inside the tomb spanding beside
them. And John, the two angels were
quote sitting, one at the head, the
other at the foot where the body of
Jesus had lain. By whom and where was
Jesus first seen when he was allegedly
resurrected? Matthew, Mary Magdalene and
the other Mary on the road to to tell
his disciples. Mark, Mary Magdalene
only. Luke, two of the disciples. John,
Mary Magdalene outside the tomb.
Different people, different places,
different times. And we're told to
believe
it. So my point is that we have to begin
by questioning the scriptural authority
to begin with. If there were four
stories that we knew who they were
written by and they all they all backed
each other up detail for detail, we
would have a foundation upon which we
could trust this. But we have four
gospels anonymously written
[Music]
um conflicting with one another on huge
details and were asked to believe it. Uh
Dr. around. I want to be fair for the
the person who, you know, he says,
"Well, hold on. Uh, you have this is an
event that's uh one of the the most
documented in history. Historians like
uh Josephus and others who have
documented this as an event that did
take place. How do you respond?"
Well, first of all, I mean, we have to
remember that in the Islamic tradition,
uh, we do not disagree about a crucifix
crucifixion having happened. Mhm. Okay.
Uh, in the Islamic tradition, a
crucifixion did happen. Mhm. Uh, but
Muslims believe that uh Jesus Christ was
not the one who was crucified. Now, I
have to make a point here. A little
known fact is that early Christians were
divided on this issue. Many early
Christians did not also did not believe
that Jesus Christ was Christian. Now
this is a fact. Now this is a fact that
there was a big controversy. Everyone
didn't just believe this. They were
divided. Okay. Early Christians had
different concepts about this and some
of the sects which uh which uh denied
the crucifixion were huge. Um and their
reasons for denying it were sound as
well.
uh for
example uh Jesus Christ prayed to be
saved from the uh from the uh
crucifixion. At the same time in the
Bible, we are told that uh that God
heard his prayers because he was a
righteous man. Now what does heard his
prayers mean? Does that mean heard his
prayers and then refused them? No. It
means heard his prayers and accepted
them. Otherwise, it wouldn't make any
sense. It would be like saying God heard
his prayers and denied him because he
was a righteous man. That does that
wouldn't make any sense. So,
um you know, many many early Christians,
they did not believe that Jesus Christ
had been crucified. They believe that he
was raised up. And the Islamic belief is
that another was uh substituted in this
place but it was made to appear to the
people that it was Jesus Christ. Who was
substituted? The vote is out. But the
most popular opinion is that it was
Judas Scariot. Yeah. He was the one who
was deserving punishment. He was he was
the traitor to God's prophet. and and
the uh Islamic belief is that God
altered his features or the perception
of the people to believe that he was
Jesus Christ. He was crucified in place
of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ himself
was raised up until the time that he
will return. Dr. Brown, tell me, is
there any explicit statement that Jesus
peace be upon him ever said that I am
coming to die for the sins of the world?
This is a serious matter and I just want
to know the one that we love, Jesus. Did
he ever say that he's going to believe
in him and you'll be saved from all
these sins and you I'm dying for your
sins and put it on my back. I'll carry
it for you. Well, I call it the Jesus
gold
card. No. I mean, first of all, no. And
you have to ask yourself why. Because
the purpose of You said no. Right. Not
at all. No. He he never said he was
going to die for the sins of mankind. As
a matter of fact, he said many things
that would indicate that he wasn't going
to. Okay. Uh again, Jesus Christ was uh
was a uh orthodox Jew. Mhm. Uh he taught
the uh the Jewish the Mosaic law. He
come he came saying, "Do not think that
I have come to destroy the law. I have
not come but to fulfill." Um and he even
elaborated. He he said, "Until heaven
and earth shall pass. Not one jot, not
one tit of the law shall be destroyed
until all is fulfilled. So, you know,
the the point is that that he was
following Mosaic law. And what did
Mosaic law teach? Mosaic law taught that
u the father shall not bear the iniquity
of the son and the son shall not bear
the iniquity of the father. That makes
sense. Okay, makes sense. And there's
evidence for it, right? So basically
what Jesus Christ was teaching was
against the even against the concept of
original
sin because how can the son bear the
iniquity of Adam if he doesn't even bear
the iniquity of his father. Mhm. Okay.
And you have another example when when
the children were gathering around Jesus
he said do not forbid them for of thine
is the kingdom of heaven. These were
children. They you know if they had
original sin upon them he wouldn't be
able to say of thine is the kingdom of
heaven because they would be stained by
original sin. Mhm. What what he was
saying is contrary to what we are being
told by the
church. His companions now those who
knew him the best those who were around
him they witnessed his teachings. Did
they ever preach this that Jesus died
for the sins of the world? No. the the
way that the concept grew was that Jesus
Christ himself taught
accountability. I mean, if you if you
read the if you read a red letter Bible,
the Bible that shows you all of the the
actual recorded words of Jesus in red,
you will find that all that he taught
was to keep the law. And he condemned he
condemned anybody who practiced
lawlessness.
um with regard to uh salvation, he he
taught that if you want the kingdom of
heaven, obey the laws. Okay. Paul came
along and abolished the laws and
established the concept of um of just uh
the atonement, established the concept
of justification by faith. Um so these
were this is part of the conflict
between the teachings of Jesus which was
the law of the kingdom of God and the
teachings of Paul which abolished that.
Mhm. Let's bring it back to the one who
is in charge of everything who's running
maintaining sustaining this universe.
Did he ever send a messenger? Some of
the greatest messengers we know,
Abraham, Noah, Moses, we discussed what
Jesus said in the last and final
messenger, Prophet Muhammad, peace be
upon them all. Did any of them at any
time preach, teach
anything of this that we're talking
about? No. But I will tell you what what
did happen. uh every every prophet
taught the oneness of God, the uh the
absolute necessity of keeping his law
and personal
accountability. Uh however, uh in every
instance I know of at some point in time
following the period of revelation, the
people found this a little bit too
difficult, a little bit too confining.
and you found some charismatic leader
who would come along and give the people
what they needed. Basically, an easier
path. The only problem is that the
question arises, is this are these
promises going to be there when those
people present themselves on the day of
judgment? Look, we're being told to
accept the concept of original sin, that
we bear the stain of the sins of Adam,
even though Jesus Christ himself
endorsed the the teaching that no son
will bear the iniquity of the father.
Okay. At the same time, we we are told
that Jesus died for our sins. And yet in
I'm just going to quote again. I know
you hate this, but Hosea 6:6
uh according to God, quote, I des I
desire mercy and not sacrifice. I desire
mercy and not sacrifice. And desire and
not sacrifice. And then here we're being
told, but God sacrificed his only
begotten
child. Wait a minute. You then turn
around and ask,
well,
why? Has anybody I'm sure we've all
questioned this at some time.
Why? Ask why did God have to sacrifice
his quote as according to the the uh you
know trinitarian faith his quote only
begotten son. Why? The answer comes back
because God needed an atoning
sacrifice. I just have to say that flies
in the face of reason. It goes against
what Muslims believe because of one word
need. The word need. God needed a
sacrifice. We We as human beings we
need. We need things. God doesn't need
anything. He may have things that he
wants like he would like to see us be
good people. He would like to see us
serve and worship him. But he doesn't
need there is nothing that we can do.
There's nothing that we we can give God
that he couldn't have by his own
valition. Mhm.
So then you you ask well why couldn't
God have forgiven us without a
sacrifice?
Is God not big enough to do
that? Uh I guess it comes down to your
concept of God and each person has to
just ask themselves what makes what
makes sense. Does it does it make more
sense to trust anonymous gospels which
conflict in their stories, conflict in
their evidence, uh etc., etc. or does it
more make more sense
to follow the um you know the train of
logic that I'm that I'm talking about? I
mean I just to go back we wouldn't
accept uh someone trying to bring a case
forward in court and there's no
witnesses that we can examine. So this
is just illogical that we would accept
something and blindly believe it even
though we don't know who the witness
are. We covered that point. We're almost
running out of time. I want to
now uh address this issue of true
salvation because some people who are
sincere and that's who we're reaching
out to. We want the sincere people who
have questioned this and that's all they
knew but they know that you know what
this doesn't make sense. I'm not going
to be responsible for something someone
did. You know, Adam picked the apple and
now it's on me and I got to force myself
to believe something that just does not
make sense. So tell us tell the viewers
what
is the correct concept for
salvation. Talk to us. Well uh you know
to begin with I I would say that
whenever you see something that doesn't
make sense you have to run from it. I I
do have to make one final point and that
is that we're told that the first step
to to salvation in Christianity is to
recognize
that the uh atoning sacrifice of Jesus
Christ. Okay, this is the theme of this
talk, right? This involves two things.
Involves the the concept of original sin
and the atoning sacrifice. In one case,
we're told that it doesn't matter if you
believe. In the other case, we're told
it only matters if you believe. Let me
give you an example. Um, are we as all
human beings according to Christianity,
do we all have the stain of original sin
upon us? The answer is yes. Whether you
believe or not, whether you believe or
not, you you're affected by original
sin. Okay. Um, can we achieve salvation
uh just through the atoning sacrifice of
Jesus even if we don't believe in it?
No, you have to believe it. If you
believe in it, then you'll be saved. If
you don't believe in it, you won't be
saved. Wait a minute. Was it an atoning
sacrifice or not? If it was an atoning
sacrifice, it doesn't matter whether you
believe or not. If it wasn't an atoning
sacrifice, it doesn't matter either way.
Uh to come back to the the question,
what is true salvation?
You know, I just think I think everybody
out there who has a sound mind and a
sound heart and who hasn't been
brainwashed to believe something else
knows the answer to that. True salvation
is to turn to your creator with an open
heart, to repent for your sins, to
declare true belief, and and then to
walk in the path of the servitude and
worship of him as he prescribes for us.
That is true
salvation. And you just have got to take
it in those steps. I mean, number one,
you have to recognize him not as other
people tell you to recognize him, but as
he actually is, as one one god, one
creator. You have to you have to repent
for the sins that you have made through
a priest, through a minister, through an
imam. No, through your heart, directly
to your God. Okay? because it's between
you and him. There's no
intermediary. And then you have to
declare true faith. You have to declare,
if you're sincere, you have to declare
that you
will accept his religion and adhere to
it. And that's what it
takes. Dr. Brown, we can go on and on
and people can uh you have a chapter
about the crucifixion in misguided in
Misguided and you can visit Dr. Brown at
leveltruth.com. leveltruth.com. And in
the uh misguided, he has a whole chapter
on the crucifixion and he's got uh a ton
of other great uh stuff in here. You can
uh look into his books and uh we hope
inshallah to have you back again. Hope
to be here again. Thanks. Thanks very
much. Thank you very much. And I'd like
to thank everyone for sitting through
another episode of the Dean Show. Now,
just to recap, as our guest Dr. Brown
had mentioned Jesus peace be upon him.
He never taught he never taught this
concept that he came to die for your
sins. His companions never taught this.
And most of all, the one who has the
attribute of being the just, the creator
of the heavens and the earth, he didn't
attach this stigma to you. You were born
in original goodness. If you make a
mistake, we all do. We're human beings.
Turn to the creator alone and ask him to
forgive you. He is the most forgiving,
the most loving. He will forgive you.
Now, with that said, we're going to cut
out and we'll see you next time on
another episode of the Dean Show. Until
then, assalamu alaykum. Peace be unto
you. The DVDs for da as Allah has said
in the Quran in surah
16125. Invite all to the way of your
lord with wisdom, beautiful preaching
and reason with them in ways that are
best. And this is a great opportunity
for you to take up the obligation, take
up the call as Allah has told you to do
and share this beautiful message with
the world. Islam, submission to the one
God. Come and see what everyone's
talking about. If you find one
contradiction, it kept me from God.
But the rational idea, the rational
explanation is you do your best. Give up
worshiping God as one. I will never give
up spreading this message. Hope that you
take that necessary step. You don't know
if you're going to live till
tomorrow. So you got to find that
urgency to do the right thing right now.
If you say that you do not believe in
Jesus, you have stepped outside of
Islam. You cannot be a Muslim. It is
attended our faith to
It's cold. It's late.
Everybody
sleeping. I
arise and ask Allah to forgive
me. Oh Allah, you
see. Oh Allah, you
know all the sins I
do. I turn to you to forgive my sins in
my
[Music]
heart. I'm your sinful slave.
You're my loving
Lord. I'm the one who runs
away. Oh Allah, guide me.