Alhamdulillah. Peace be unto you. Thank
you for tuning in to another episode of
the Dean Show Dean Show. Today the topic
we're going to be discussing Jesus peace
be upon him or Muhammad. If you had to
take a choice, who would you pick? Would
you pick the mighty messenger Jesus or
Muhammad? But in Islam, which simply
means to surrender to the will of the
one God,
we pick both. And that's what we're
going to be discussing here on the Dean
Show today. We make it simple. We make
it very simple. We accept all the
messengers and Jesus peace be upon him
as one of the mightiest messengers of
God and the last and final sent
messenger sent to mankind the prophet
Muhammad peace be upon him. And to to
discuss more of this here on the Dean
Show today is Dr. Gerald Dirks, former
Christian deacon, preacher, graduated
from the prestigious Harvard University.
We'll be right back with more here on
the Dean Show.
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is the show. This is the show. This is
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Peace be with you, Dr. Gerald Dirks. How
are you?
Uh, alhamdulillah. I am fine and peace
be upon you, brother.
How have you been since the last time
you visit us here at the studio?
Ah, you know, praise God. Thanks be to
God. Everything has been going well.
Yeah. for some of the audience that you
know you have your own section there at
the deanshow.com. They can go and kind
of read your biography to get to know a
little bit about you. We've done several
shows with you in the past. They can go
there and also watch your story. But
just uh to bring some people up to
speed, can you tell us in a minute just
a little bit about yourself? Well, I did
my uh undergraduate work at Harvard and
then I received my master of divinity at
Harvard as well
and then went on from there and uh
received my masters and doctorate in
clinical psychology from the University
of Denver.
Yeah. So, we like to consider you I know
you're humble and this is one of the
teachings of Islam that we need to be
humble but you know you know the Bible
quite well. Many would consider you a
Bible scholar and we are talking to you
on this very important topic. Now we
know that God Almighty throughout time
has sent messengers. Yeah.
And it is for the human being after the
messenger has delivered an extensive
amount of proof that he is a messenger
and has come with that same message. Not
something weird you know with one
messenger God tells you to you know
worship the sun another one the moon
then one contradicts all these but the
consistent message has been the same.
Well there two points of the message
that have always remained the same. One
is that there is one God and one God
only and only that one God is to be
worshiped.
That's been second
and the second message is there will be
a day of accountability.
So they all warned and taught about
this. So
these two things right now in Islam we
we have this concept of progressive
revelation.
Yes.
So that the revelation originally given
to prophet Adam may be somewhat
different than that later given to
prophet Noah.
Yes. which in turn might be somewhat
different from that later given to
prophet Abraham, prophet Moses, prophet
Jesus, prophet Muhammad peace be upon
them all.
This is not that in any way, shape or
form God has changed his mind.
Yeah.
But rather that the revelation is being
paced according to the spiritual
development of humanity or to that of a
particular group of people. Now, some
people will deny Jesus,
peace be upon him,
and some people will go ahead and deny
Muhammad, and some people will try to
put them two up against each other.
Where do we stand?
Well, you know, back in grade school, we
used to have these multiple choice
tests. Yeah.
You know, it's A, it's B, it's C, it's
none of the above, it's all of the
above. In Islam, it's all of the above.
All of the above.
We we accept all of the prophets and
messengers of God. We recognize them all
equally.
Yeah. Now what's the unique thing about
Islam that and how would you if someone
came to you and they they they approach
you and they say okay well Jesus you
know he he was uh he did all these
miracles and wonders and he proved that
he was a prophet. How could someone be
sure that Muhammad peace be upon him was
a messenger of God?
Well I think the place to start is read
the Quran.
Read the Quran.
Read read a good English translation of
the Quran. And I think there's several
aspects one one can take here in reading
the Quran. One is one can look at the
common ground that is to be found
between the message in the Quran and
much of the spiritual and ethical
teaching that's to be found in the
Bible.
Again, messengers of the same God.
Uh the second aspect though is is to
look at the Quran and say you know how
could this have been known by a 7th
century Arab uh whom we are told by all
accounts was illiterate.
Yeah.
You know there there's too much
knowledge here.
Now are there some references in the
Bible that referred to another prophet
coming after Jesus?
Oh sure there there are references. As
we look in the New Testament, uh there's
references to prophets after Jesus in
the New Testament in the book of Acts,
various people are called prophets.
Um we are told that uh you know people
came up to John the Baptist and they
said to him, "Are you Elijah return? Are
you the Messiah? Are you the prophet yet
to come?"
Yeah.
You know, so there are references in the
Bible
to additional prophets.
Now, how would you refute someone who
says, "You know what? These references
are talking about the Holy Spirit, not
actual prophet coming, you know.
Well, again, if you read the New
Testament, the Holy Spirit was already
present.
He was already present.
Sure.
Yeah. So, that that squashes that
argument.
Yeah. The Holy Spirit was already
present.
During the earthly ministry of Jesus,
the Holy Spirit was present. Why do you
think some people have a hard time
accepting that there can be another
messenger or there is another messenger
that came after Jesus peace be upon
because I mean it's apparent I mean that
right now if you wanted to follow Jesus
peace be upon him life to a tea you
couldn't do it because is it true you
the Bible scholar tell us that you know
you know this book well that we don't
have the original teachings of Jesus
everything we have of I I was I quoting
Bart Aram from one of his books reading
Miss Corny Jesus, he said, and this is,
you know who he is, we don't have a copy
of a copy of a copy of a copy of
anything original. Is this true?
Well, we we certainly don't have
anything original.
Yeah.
And if if you look, you know, many
Christians are familiar with what's
called a red letter edition.
Yes.
Of the Bible where the supposed words of
Jesus are printed in red.
Um, you know, maybe a lot of that was
actually said by Jesus.
Yeah.
uh maybe some of it wasn't. The bottom
line is we really don't know,
you know, we we don't have uh
provenance.
Yes.
Uh for the sayings of Jesus um that is
really sound and and takes us back. But
it's is this coincidence that this man
Muhammad peace be upon him who didn't
call people to worship himself who you
know was calling people to the same
message of Jesus worship one God also
what you talked about the day of
judgment the hereafter and his life is
more authentically recorded than any
person in history is this true
certainly uh recorded in detail
far surpassing that that we have of any
of the the prior prophets
of no I mean if you wanted to follow
Abraham to a tea
Yeah. Can you do it I mean from A to Z
the way you can prophet Muhammad?
No. I mean you you can construct or
attempt to construct a biography of
prophet Abraham and in fact I have
written a book on it by combining
Judeo-Christian and Islamic sources but
um the daytoday sort of detail that we
have about prophet Muhammad and his life
no we don't have that on others. Before
we go to break, so is there anyone from
your studies that there that you have a
person's more of his detail accounts of
his life than Prophet Muhammad peace be
upon him?
Not in terms of any of the prophets. No,
certainly Prophet Muhammad is is unique
in terms of having that level of detail
recorded about his historical life.
Okay, let's take a break and we'll be
right back with more here on the Dean
Show.
He is the maintainer. He is the
you say that you do not believe in
Jesus. You have stepped outside of
Islam. You cannot be a Muslim. It is
attended our faith to believe in and
love Jesus Christ.
I I would say this thing that you just
told me it's not in the scripture. And
they would say a marginal note added by
a scribe. Yeah. Okay. We know that. And
I'd be thinking if you know this is not
the Bible, why are you preaching it as
if it's gospel truth? Save us from
hunger.
Back here with Dr. Gerald Dirks
discussing Jesus or Muhammad. We pick
them both.
Absolutely.
Now, let's talk about their message.
Let's talk about the simplicity of the
life that Jesus peace be upon him lived
and what he teach preached and what he
called the people to.
Well, maybe before we even get to to the
message. Yeah. There there are certain
points I think we need to highlight in
terms of the commonality that exists
between uh the teachings about the life
of Jesus peace be upon him uh both in
Christianity and in Islam.
Yes.
Uh both religions proclaim the virgin
birth of Jesus.
Both of them
both we do as as Muslims we proclaim it.
But for us the virgin birth is an act of
miraculous creation.
It's not an act of divine beginning.
Yes. Uh we both believe that Jesus
performed many miraculous healings and
cures.
All Muslims believe this. We believe
that Jesus ascended into heaven.
Mhm.
Uh we also believe that Jesus will
return.
Yes.
There are numerous sayings of prophet
Muhammad peace be upon him that says
Jesus will return in the end times, will
slay the antichrist and establish an
earthly rule. All of these things being
uh also talked about within traditional
Christianity,
but the message that they both brought.
Talk about the message.
There are some beautiful examples and
and I'm going to to just read this to
make sure I don't misquote anything.
Yes.
But let's take an example. This is from
um the New Testament from the book of
Matthew the 6th chapter verses 1-4 in
which Jesus reportedly is warning people
to stay away from false piety when it
comes to charity. And let me just read
the words. Beware of practicing your
piety before others in order to be seen
by them. For then you have no reward
from your father in heaven. So whenever
you give alms, do not sound a trumpet
before you as the hypocrites do in the
synagogues and in the streets, so that
they may be praised by others. Truly, I
tell you, they have received their
reward. But when you give alms, do not
let your left hand know what your right
hand is doing,
so that your alms may be done in secret,
and your father, who sees in secret,
will reward you. Now, that's from the
sixth chapter of Matthew. Now the
Islamic parallels. This is from the
Quran 2 chapter verse 264.
Oh you who believe
cancel not your charity by reminders of
your generosity or by injury like those
who spend their substance to be seen of
men but believe neither in God nor in
the last day.
Or the saying of prophet Muhammad peace
be upon him when God created the earth
the angels asked if anything in God's
creation was stronger than wind
and he replied yes the son of Adam who
gives charity with his right hand while
concealing it from his left and that's
reported in termi
same message that we see Jesus
reportedly preaching.
Yes.
In Matthew, that we see in the Quran,
that we see in the sayings of Prophet
Muhammad.
Another example,
one that that really stresses
um
what is often considered to be the
central part of Jesus's message among
Christians is the so-called golden rule.
Yes.
Do unto others as you would have them do
unto you.
In Islam, we have a beautiful parallel
in a saying by prophet Muhammad, which
is um no one believes, no one really
believes
unless he wants for his brother what he
wants for himself.
Yes.
You know, very powerful parallel
messages that we find between the
reported words of Jesus and the message
in the Quran and the reported sayings of
Prophet Muhammad. So if you look back to
the teachings of Moses, whatever is left
or Abraham, all these messengers
basically they were calling to the same
way, the same ideas, the same theology,
everything. They were brothers of one
another.
Well, certainly they were brothers of
one another. And like I say said before,
there are two aspects of the the message
that they all preach that were the same.
Yeah.
One God. There's only one. Only that one
is to be worshiped. and we're all going
to have to account for ourselves uh in
an eventual day of judgment. But
certainly one message and um if we look
back to Moses, there's a um
statement in the book of Deuteronomy
that is central to Judaism. It's called
the Shama and it's here. O Israel, the
Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Yes. Now this is key building block of
Judaism. In the New Testament we have
someone coming up to Jesus and saying
you know master which is the greatest
commandment of all and we're told in the
New Testament that Jesus responds here.
O Israel the Lord our God the Lord is
one.
Yes.
You know certainly in Islam we have the
same message over and over in the Quran.
There is only one God. So when you go
from hearing this here, oh Israel, the
Lord thy God is one then again there is
only one God. Again I'm asking the
question I mean this is for me I mean
just the layman I'm thinking that this
is a great opportunity when Jesus is
approached to say that look I am God
three in one and I'm coming to die for
your sins. You better accept this
otherwise you're going to be in the
hellfire and you're going to be
accountable and your salvation if you
don't is ruined. But is there anything
clear like this in the Bible?
What you just said is clear is what the
Lord thy God is one and there's nothing
after that.
Right.
But I'm assuming the the creators, you
know, we can't even compare our
knowledge to his. So why isn't there or
is there and I'm am I am I or are many
people missing something?
The the word trinity never appears in
the Bible. It's not spelled out.
Well, the word never appears.
Never.
Now, there is one verse in
First John.
Yeah.
Letter of First John that many
Christians quote to to show there's a
trinity. But this verse appears only in
the King James version. It's a verse
that we know from the text. We know it
was added uh to a Latin manuscript in
Spain around the year 380
and from there spread to all the Latin
manuscripts and even got into a few of
the Greek manuscripts. But this is a
later edition and and all Bible scholars
of any repute acknowledge that this is a
later edition.
Now did Jesus ever say that look I'm
coming to die for your sins accept me as
your Lord and Savior that I'm going to
die on the cross. Clear. I'm just
saying, look, me and you're going to
enter into a contract
and you want to get paid tomorrow. I'm
going to do the work. We're going to
make it clear as possible. So, I'm
thinking my salvation rests on this. So,
I'm just asking humbly a very simple
question. Did Jesus, peace be upon him,
ever explicitly say, I'm going to die on
the cross and I'm your God and put all
your sins on my back. Just believe in
me. Something like this, give or take.
Is there anything like this? Humbly I'm
asking.
No. No. there there's certainly nothing
that direct anywhere and in fact there
are passages which uh you know would say
that Jesus said if anything the
opposite.
For example,
well in the Gospel of John
we're told in the 17th chapter that
Jesus is praying
before his reported arrest.
Yes. And in his prayer, he says, and I'm
quoting here from the New Revised
Standard Version of the Bible, and this
is eternal life, that they may know you,
the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom
you have sent. I glorified you on earth
by, here's the key part, finishing the
work that you gave me to do.
The work that Jesus was given to do
reportedly by his own words was finished
before he was even arrested
before they took him.
So obviously anything that happened
after this point in time
let's
was not part of anything that God gave
Jesus to do.
Let's take a break and be right back
with more here on the Dean Show.
I am not afraid to stand alone.
I am not afraid to stand alone. If Allah
is my side, I am not afraid to stand
alone.
I am not afraid to stand alone. If Allah
is by my side, I am not afraid to stand
alone.
I am not afraid to stand alone. If Allah
is by my side, I am not afraid to stand
alone.
Back here on the Dean Show with Dr.
Gerald Dirks, we left off where I asked
the question, did Jesus, peace be upon
him, ever explicitly say or teach that
he was coming to die for the sins of the
world? You left off where you quoted
John 2017, was it? Uh it was gospel of
John and it was just before his arrest
of alleged arrest.
This is this is life eternal that they
may know you the only true God. Yes.
So God the only true God that's the one
we are worshiping.
Yes.
And Jesus whom you have sent and this
would also clarify that he was sent as a
as a messenger just like Abraham was
sent Moses in the last and final
messenger. And you say that the work is
done. What was that last part?
Okay.
I glorified you on earth by finishing
the work that you gave me to do.
It's done.
It's finished.
Yeah. And this is uh for for those
Christians who want to look this up.
Yeah.
You know, this is a gospel according to
John chapter 17.
Oh,
and um really read verses 1-5. The key
phrase is in verse four.
So, this is chap I'm sorry, this is uh
the Gospel of John chapter 17, right?
Verse what? verses 1-5 to get the
context. Yeah. Uh but it's really in
verse four that we see this phrase uh I
glorified you on earth by finishing the
work that he gave me to do.
Now this is in the revised standard
version.
New Revised Standard Version.
New Revised. What if someone says look I
have a King James version.
Look it up.
It's the same thing. Well, I don't have
the King James version with me,
but uh you know the thing to bear in
mind, the King James version,
um
at the time it was done, it was it was
the best thing probably available in
English.
But uh when they made the translation,
they went to rather late Greek
manuscripts.
Yes.
Uh and making their translation, they
didn't go back to the earliest
manuscripts.
uh the new revised standard version
basically the scholars the translators
have gone back to the earliest
manuscripts we have
uh and made their translation from that.
So it's um a more authentic in terms of
its provenence.
This one that you're quoting.
Oh yes.
Okay. But it's still not an original.
There is no original.
No original.
The original's lost. There's no
original.
No original. Okay. Okay. We're going to
leave off there. No original. We'll be
right back with more here on the Dean
Show. I am not afraid to stand alone.
I am not afraid to stand alone. If Allah
is by my side, I am not afraid to stand
alone.
I am not afraid to stand alone. If Allah
is by my side, I am not afraid to stand
alone.
I am not afraid to stand alone. If Allah
is by my side, I am not afraid to stand
alone.
[Music]
I would go to my room, lock the door,
prostrate and cry saying, "God, you know
me better than myself. Show me the right
way and I would not look back. I will
leave everything behind."
Allah is our creator and he creates
everything and he gives intelligence to
people. Allah is Muhammad peace be upon
Muhammad is one of the last messengers
sent from God.
Back here on the Dean show with Dr.
Gerald Dirks. We only have a couple more
minutes left for those. Now we've
explained the similarities
and you talked about how their message
was the same Jesus and Muhammad. So for
the person who's listening to that like
what you had to say some closing
comments and suggestions
for this topic Jesus and Muhammad having
to choose between one or the other. What
do we say?
All of the above.
All of the above. We choose both. We
choose both Jesus and Muhammad as well
as the prophets that came before Jesus.
John the Baptist. Uh
you know Adam, Noah, Abraham,
um Isaac, Ishmael. Yeah. Jacob, Joseph,
all the prophets uh sent by God are
prophets that Islam acknowledges. Now,
we're told that we don't know the names
of all of the prophets. Yeah.
That God has sent, but certainly those
that we have the names for, we
acknowledge and accept. That includes
most of the prophets of the the Bible.
We love them all.
Oh, absolutely.
We don't have to wrestle with this
trying to put one against the other,
create division amongst them.
Oh, no. No. In fact, the Quran tells us,
you know, don't don't try and create
hierarchical orders among among the
prophets.
Yeah.
That that's not for you.
Yes.
As humans to do.
Yes. Okay. Well, tell us now, how could
someone people if they want to get a
hold of you, some of your books, uh,
best way to to do that? Well, if they're
interested in the in the common ground
between Islam and Christianity and the
common message taught by Prophet
Muhammad and and Prophet Jesus, peace be
upon them. Um, one of my books details
in great uh length these common passages
from the Bible and the Quran. And that's
called the Abrahamic faiths. Yeah.
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. They
can get that or any of my other books as
well as contact me.
You're available for public lectures and
Oh, yeah. dialogues.
Sure.
Okay. And that your information is all
there.
Yes. All at that website.
Peace be unto you. Thank you for being
with us.
Thank you, brother.
Thank you.
And thank you for tuning in to another
episode of the Dean Show. You got to
hear it. Jesus or Muhammad. All of the
above. We accept all the messengers of
God. They all call to the same way. That
way of acquiring peace by submitting
your will to the owner of peace, the one
God. Doing what the creator wants you to
do on his terms, not your desires. And
then you have that pleasant, beautiful
reward of his paradise. And that's what
we're all striving for, to be the best
human beings that we can be in this life
according to God's will. And then we get
his wonderful reward in the next life.
And we'll see you next time here on the
Dean Show. Until then, peace be unto